28-05-2004 01:36									#61
	Re: Re: Re: vxma garth vader help Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by xoham Can I assume you are hunkered down in one system this whole time then? Otherwise how would you avoid the agression of the other races long enough to obtain the 3500 stuff? If you are not creative, please fill me in on some of your bigger tech decisions. For example. Planetary Supercomputer, Positronic (if I recall correctly). How many spies do you need to defend against having all your techs looted? Thanks to everyone else that posted.

In most cases, I will be hunkered down. Maybe grab a close by system or two if no threats. If playing a tele or maybe a Tol, then I will do things differently. This presumes normal game settings, not some special maps. In a prewarp as well.

Spies, I tend to make them often in the early game. Once I finsih the builds for a given planet it will usually make a spy. I tend to have a planet making spies constantly. especially if creative (no free techs is my goal).

Here is a run for a UniLith:

T38 colonize Scaliger III set to housing, scout can move again
T40 space hydra kills scout at Wain
T41 0/13/3
T42 CS out to Goi (need to extend scouts), srt CS on HW,
0/16/0 0/1/2 0/1/2 0/1/0
T4x colonize Goi, scout can move
Txx R- hulls (may consider Bio as HW full), switch to lab on all, buy on all,
but HW as it is 2 turns for CS
Txx Hali 0/1/0 housing (poor Huge), Naos 0/1/1 spy Pre for AF, Nazin I 0/1/2
spy Pre for Bio as Size 4, Nazin II 0/4/0 Lab
Txx HW finished CS, sent it out and do Lab 0/3/13 one turn.
Now follow this tech run, turns are dependant upon the planets you are dealt, but will be close.
Freighters
Std Cells
Colony Ship
Electronic Comp
Research Labs
R Hull
Auto Fact
Bios
Soil
T84 Laser
T93 Super
T95 B Pods
T98 Spaceport
T102 Robos
T103 Space Academy
T106 Duets
T109 Merc
T110 Augie
T116 Irridium
T121 Fusion Rifle
T123 Tach Comm
T132 Zort
T141 Antimatter Drive

	28-05-2004 01:38									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Here is a Lith Dem run where the research is more like normal:

Settings: Rep -GC -SD Lith Dem +P Huge PreWarp Mineral Rich 8 players Impossible Antarans ON Tactic Combat.

Worker dispositions are shown as x/y/z, where:
x= number of workers on food production
y= number of workers on industry
z= number of workers on research

R-abc denotes I started a new research project this turn and abc is the name of it.

AF= automated factory
BB= battleship
CB= colony base
HEF= High Energy Focus
HW= homeworld
OP= outpost
PP= Pollution Processor
RL= research labs
SA= Space Academy
SB= star base
srt stands for started



T0 R-EC, srt CB, 0/1/7
T2 R-RL
T10 R-Hulls, buy RL
T11 srt CB
T18 R-freighers, buy AF
T20 R-std cells, switched to freighter
T22 srt CB
T23 R-CS, 0/1/8 switch to scout (no comp, no weapons)
T24 srt CB 0/5/4 scout out
T27 R-BIO, Leader Hawk shows up
T30 R-Laser
T33 R-cells
T34 found Nasin III 0/1/0 srt AF, HW srt bio
T37 srt CB, buy AF
T38 srt RL
T39 buy RL
T40 Naszin III housing
T41 R-Cloners
T45 move 1 pop to HW
T46 Tyranous shows up, located Lone good UR and Rich planets
T51 srt OP, found Nazin II 0/1/0 srt AF, buy AF, OP out, srt CS
T52 srt RL on II
T53 R-PP
T54 buy RL
T55 srt cloner on II and III
T56 OP on Lone III
T62 srt srt barracks on III
T65 KimbuzzI shows
T66 srt Bio
T68 R-SA, switch HW to PP
T69 srt CB, srt PP on III, srt PP on II
T72 R-Beam
T74 srt SA on HW, CS to Lone, Nazin III 0/2/3 housing, hire Tryono
T75 R-Battle Scanner
T76 srt bio on II
T77 scout killed by dragon
T78 srt OP
T79 housing on II, found Lone II srt AF, shuffle pop
(ok, I was lazy here and my notes do not save what
(the shuffle was. It was probably scientist and industry
(workers being reassigned)
T80 Hired Houri, buy AF
T81 R-Mass Driver, buy RL, OP to Lone, srt spy 0/3/10
T82 srt cloner on Lone
T83 R-Battle Pods
T86 OP on Lone I, srt CS, shiffle pop
T88 R-N. Scanner, srt SA on III
T89 srt SA on ? (it is either I or II can' read it)
T91 srt bio on Lone III
T93 R-Drive
T95 R-ports
T96 hire Crassis and send to Lone, srt SB on II & III
T97 srt PP on Love
T101 R-robo switch all to ports
T104 srt SB on II & III
T106 housing on Lone
T108 R-Super computer, switch all to robo
T109 srt CS
T117 R-AMC, srt comp, CS to Lone, switch SB to comp
T118 srt SB on II, contact Gnolam
T123 R-Tele Training
T128 R-Terraform (4 spies now) srt spy #5 0/2/12
R-Internial Stablizer
R-N. Scan
T147 R-Radiated Shield, contact Sakkra they have 8 systems, I have 2
went with Rad shields to handle all the planets
T152 R-Adv Dam Control
T156 R-Ground Batt
T162 R-Stock Exchange
T167 R-drive
T170 R-R-cyber link
T171 steal Merculite Constr
T175 R-Autolab, steal Pulson Missile
T177 Hire Cyr, srt 2nd BB
T179 steal nano tech
T182 steal class III
T184 R-Atmosphere Renewer
T188 R-Zort
T191 steal Dimension Portal
T195 R-Grav Gen
T199 R-Subspace Comm
T200 steal irridium cells
T202 contact Mrrs and Elerians
T203 R-Stealth suits
T206 steal antimatter drive
T207 R-Astro Univers
T209 found Carina
T211 steal Urridium cells
T213 R-Warp Interdicter
T214 class I
T215 steal Neuronium Armor
T218 R-Recycletron
T222 R-Phasor
T229 R-weather Control
T232 R-Robotic Fac
T233 steal Zeon missile
T234 steal Emission Guide
T235 R-Hi Intell
T241 R-Class V
T245 R-Torps
T247 busted dragon at Axion OP on its way
T248 R-transports
T252 R-Deep Core
T255 steal ECM
T258 R-HEF
T261 steal N. blaster
T262 R-cells, busted Anies at Axion
T263 steal Merc Missile (I think thats what it says)
T267 R-Plasma Rifle
T268 steal Impulse Cannon
T270 steal Opt Comp
T271 R-Hard Shields
T276 R-droids
T280 R-Cyber Nets, busted Orion
T284 R-Universal Antidote
T288 R-Class VII, steal missile base
T291 R-Disrupter
T294 R-Adv City Planning, Klacs steal from me (whoops lazy)
T296 declare war on Klacs for stealing
T298 R-Hyper Comm
T300 capture Mrrs Domke
T301 R-Molecular Comp
T304 R-Hyper X
T307 R-Gaia
T312 R-Galactic Exchange
T315 R-Artemis, capture Maalor
T322 R-Class X
T327 R-T. cells
T331 R-drives
T334 R-Stelar Convertor, all tech done


I did not keep track of all the spies I built. As a rule, if I am not creative, I will make spies
on some planet when it has nothing else to build. I will pile them up on defense and keep some on someone. I will try to get it up to about 4-6. I will do it to all races that I am at war with.
One thing I tend to do is as each new planet finishes it last structure, it makes a spy. One planet will be making them continuously and only stop to make a needed structure. Late in the game I will stop that once I have 30 or so on defense and m

	28-05-2004 01:48									#63
	Re: . Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by xoham When I've played creative, I have definitely favored auto-fire mass drivers on early ships. Great for knocking down missles too. But I haven't had a lot of luck against space monsters with beam ships in the early game. If there is a juicy planet one system away, I really want to take it. I had a lot of luck last game with nuclear missle ships. Sacrificed a couple but still got the system. Lost the game overall though.

Now a days, if I play creative it will be a stay on my system until I have 3 battleships. Then I will colonize a system or two or take one from someone.

This means no monsters for some time. I will have zortium and Heavy Armor with a decent computer and be able to take one down, if I want.

Likely I will not want to it. I prefer to let the AI start those system and then take it from them. I go to Orion and do not colonize it. Later I will come back and capture it with some structures in place.

This is because I will not have enough shipping to defend lots of fledgling systems. I would rather grab a good planet that I can get up to self defend in a short time. Better still if it has a few other planets and I can then afford to sit my fleet there for enough time to get them going. I will be getting more ships to come baby sit.

	28-05-2004 15:07									#64
	Re: . Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by xoham But I haven't had a lot of luck against space monsters with beam ships in the early game. If there is a juicy planet one system away, I really want to take it. I had a lot of luck last game with nuclear missle ships. Sacrificed a couple but still got the system. Lost the game overall though.

My earliest victories were due to 12 battlePod-ed frigates full with nuke msls. IIRC , you can have 1 fast +2 fast/mrv in each. For some time you will have to pay for the extra command points, but they will do the job except vs eels.

My usual monster killer is the 'K' cruiser ('K' stands for katyusha ).
You need following tech:
Tritanium
Pollution Proc (mrvd nukes)
Reinf Hull (or Hvy armor)
Battle Pod
Ion drive
Space Academy (optional, but you need regular crews)

K design:
BttlePod
ReinfHull (or Hvy Armor)
1X 2 fast/arm nukes
4X 2 fast/arm/mrv nukes
4X 2 fast/ecm/mrv nukes
arm and ecm are not needed vs monsters, but it's my standard early CA design.

2 of them (with regular crew!!!! very important) will take down most space monsters. I prefer to have 3 especially when facing crystals and eels.
Against dragons and eels: Let them attack (you have no choice). Only ships with all 4: Ion drive, Tritanium, RH and regular crew will survive a dragon breath. When it's your turn rush forward to get in contact (ion drive) so your missiles hit them directly. Dragons will die at shot of second ship. Eels will usually survive your first shots (if only 2 ships), but they will be so damage that you will shoot first on next turn.
Against other monsters, just shot your missiles and run. Crystals may sometimes get control of one of your ships, and shoot the remaining volley at you. Even if it's the case, you will probably kill him before they reach you, but I prefer to have 3 ships.

	28-05-2004 23:43									#65
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I some how had lost my logs for a Unitol, so I ran one last night.

Huge Impossible UniTol +P LHW Rep -GC -SD Prewarp Mineral rich
Rediscovered how bad beams are if no one has a decent computer.

All the way to turn 263 no one had anything but EC. seven or eight battleships could barely kill an eel in one round, with phasors.

Maybe this is why no wars broke out, probably more due to so many systems having lots of planets.

Anyway for xoham here is a log:

T Sell barracks
3/5/0 start CB (colony Base)
R-freighter
T1 2/6/0
T5 2/5/1
T6 found Mentar I 0/1/0 housing, 2/6/0 start CB
T11 moved pop to HW 0/1/0, 2/3/4
T12 found Mentar II 0/1/0 housing, 0/1/0, 0/1/0, 3/1/5 start spy
T17 0/1/0, 0/1/0, 3/2/5 switch to freighter, move pop to HW
R-EC
T19 moved pop from I & II to HW
4/1/7 spy
T21 R-RL
T23 Commander Grum shows up
move pop 5/1/8
T26 move pop 5/1/9
T28 move pop 5/2/9
T29 R-std cells 5/1/10 switch to RL
buy RL on II, start on I
T30 II housing, buy RL on I
6/1/9 tart spy
T31 Mentar I on housing 0/1/0
R-CS
T33 pop to HW 6/3/8
T34 R-hulls switch to scout (unarmmed, no comp) 6/1/11
T35 scout out, start CS
T36 7/11/1
T37 R-AF located Jacob
T38 Hired Emo, moved pop HW full 20/20 7/12/1
T40 0/1/0 0/1/1 8/12/0
T43 CS to Jacob, start freighter 8/3/9
T44 R-bio start AF on all
8/5/7 buy AF on II
T45 found Jacob II syart AF
II housing
T46 R-soil HW starts bio, buy AF on Jacob II
5/5/10
T47 Jacob II start RL
6/3/11 freighter I on housing
T49 start CS on HW
T51 move 2 to HW 6/5/11
T52 contact with Humans, located Mutatrix
T55 R-laser Jacob II start soil
Mentar I & II start bio
hw 6/12/4 switch to soil
T56 start CS on HW, stat SB on I
T57 R-Space Acad
T59 start spy on II
T60 start freighter, send CS to Mutatrix
T61 start CS on HW, spy on II
T62 R-n. scanner, start SA on II
T63 spy killed
T64 Jacob II start SB
Mentar I start SA
II start SB
found Mutatrix, start AF
T65 Mentar I start spy 0/2/3
HW start SA, buy AF on Mutatrix
cs to Jacob
T66 Hire Cyr
start CA (cruiser)
reinforced hull, no comp
nuke
nuke
nuke
6x nuke
T67 buy RL on Mutatrix
T68 buy AF on Jacob I
T69 CA to Mutatrix with Cyr
start freighter
start RL on Jacob I
T71 got Cache 100 on Irra
start SB on Mutatrix
T72 R-pods, Mentar II trade, send pop to Mutratrix
T73 CA to Mutatrix, start CA
T74 switch to CS, start soil on Jacob I
locate Trax
T76 start spy on Mentar I
R-f. beam
T77 pop to Mutatrix from Mentar II
start CS on HW
T79 start spy on Mentar I
T81 spy killed
R-armor
T82 cs to Trax, start cs
Jacob I housing
T83 found Trax III
T85 buy AF on Trax III
T86 R-shield, start cs on HW, cs to Trax
T87 contact Silicoids
updated CS with ARM,FST nukes via Pod
refit on Mutatrix
T90 R-drive
T96 R-battle scanner
T100 found Cursa
T101 Hire Grum, put 3 spies on Humans
cs to Cursa, start cs
buy AF on Cursa
R-fighter garrison (got scared)
T104 steal Fighter Bays
T106 start BB (battleship), buy AF on Cursa III
T107 R-robominer
start fighter garrison on Mutatrix & Cursa II
T112 steal Deuterium Cells
T114 refit scout with nukes and pod
steal Spaceport
R-merc missiles
T123 R-super computer
3 spies on Silicoids
Txxx R-Tele Training
steal Neutron Blaster from (coids)
start supers
T134 R-Stablizer
T138 R-Planetary Shields
T141 steal bomb (human)
T142 R-N. scanner, switch to Rad shields
T145 R-Terraform
T150 R-AMC start terraforming
T15x R-drive
T156 R-ADC
T159 R-Weather
reject Houri
T165 R-Cyber Link
T171 R-Ground Batteries
T174 R-Stock exchange
T176 found Artemis I
T177 R-autolab
steal Subspace (coids)
T180 found Artemis II & IV
T183 R-Stealth suit
T187 R-Pulson Missile
T189 steal phasor (coids)
T190 R-grav beam
T192 R-jump gate
T196 R-Planetary Construction (normally not chosen)
T199 R-Astro
T202 R-Zort
T205 R-interdictors
T207 steal olasma cannon (coids)
T208 R-robotic fac
T212 R-drive
T214 steal anti missile (coids)
T215 R-High Int
T219 R-class V
T221 steal antimatter bomb (human)
T223 R-Phasor rifle
T225 steal atmospheric renewer
T226 R-food replicators
need to refit BB, I have all tech from silicoids at this point
Humans have PP, Titan and Heavy Arm
T230 R-deep core
contact Meks
T233 R-HEF
T234 steal Titan (human)
T236 steal PP (human)
contact Darloks
T237 R-Advanced City
T238 steal HA (human)
T240 contact Mrrshan (they are very backward)
T241 steal recycle (human)
T242 R-plasma rifle
T246 R-hard shields (never use them)
T249 R-universal antidote
T252 R-class VII
T254 found Orion finally losing my lone scout
T256 R-android (never use them either)
Hire Khunagg
can't attack orion as my computer tech is still EC
seeing what ohers have, it can wait
T260 R-cybernet
T263 R-Molecular computer
T266 R-disrupter
now refit BB's and Titan's
I have long ago scrapped all cruisers
no attacks ever came
T269 R-Hyperspace comm
T272 R-hyper drives
T274 R-Galactic Unification
T276 R-star gate
hirecaptain caern
T280 kill guardian, refit time
T284 R-zeon

	28-05-2004 23:48									#66
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Since I did not have any comps to go to war with, I even use AP to fill out some systems. So I have a ton of planets and many are UR.

I have enough ships now rfitted to eliminate any race, even have titans. Interditors up and star gates, so no harm can come my way.

	01-06-2004 19:21									#67
	Put an end to popups!

Back on topic.

I'm playing solo, pre-warp, huge.

My current fav custom race is:
- litho, sub, AL.

In fact, it is the final evolution from:
- uni tol cyber: my first race to win pre-warp impossible.
- uni sub cyber AL: some intermediate interresting cyber race.
- sub cyber +1Prod +50%Growth AL: probably my best non-uni cyber race. Played for years this one. Although not as easy as litho, it stays fun to play.

	01-06-2004 19:56									#68
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 seven or eight battleships could barely kill an eel in one round, with phasors.

My first beam ship is a massdriver BB with EC and B-Scan and 2 of them bring down any monster...

	01-06-2004 23:28									#69
	Put an end to popups!

Not the guardian on impossible, it has 10,000 hit points and lots of fire power.

	02-06-2004 14:47									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Dry, you usually need 3 similar ships to conquer the galaxy, no need to fight with monsters ....

	02-06-2004 17:58									#71
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Bakalov, I don't fully understand what you mean.
I play huge, pre-warp, imposs - more builder than warmonger - and 3BBs are certainly not enough to conquer the galaxy, whatever their armement.
A friend of mine plays huge, advanced, imposs - 100% warmonger - and he told me, that indeed, monsters are a waist of time (he wins in ~30-35 turns, 27 being his best score). He makes his life with the original BBs and CA he receives at start, capturing all others and building a few CAs.
I don't know about average starts, I don't play them.

Now I agree with you that when those BBs show up, reachable monster systems are already cleaned and colonized.
As I said in a previous post, my monster killers are a pair of missiles CAs.
Usually, I'm very weak on fuel cells. That's my weak point, I confess.
So, what is left are those further away systems. And for them (except the Guardian), when I got the cells, 1 of those 'late' BB is enough, even with EC only.

	02-06-2004 21:28									#72
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dry A friend of mine plays huge, advanced, imposs - 100% warmonger - and he told me, that indeed, monsters are a waist of time (he wins in ~30-35 turns, 27 being his best score). He makes his life with the original BBs and CA he receives at start, capturing all others and building a few CAs.

I think your friend is pulling your leg or using Corion. Races start with Battlestations at advanced tech and shipping up to the level of the command points. This tends to mean 2 battleships and colony ship.

They will have tech from 900 to 1150 range.

You cannot even reach all the races at turn 30, unless you are playing a just a few and they are close. So even a tele needs to defeat the defenses before it can capture and of course it needs to reach the planets.

I would need to see a save from 3500.0 and a detail log to believe that story. Since it is only 27 turns, that should be an easy task.

Look at his final turn save and see if he has such things as the last range tech and maybe X-armor and items like that.

I am not even sure that if I give you all the tech you can do it in 27 turns in a huge map. I may test that later.

I have posted many logs of a few hundred turns.

	03-06-2004 11:34									#73
	Got spare money?

Dry, I mean Mass Driver BBs ... with Huge, Prewarp start.
You may need to refit them once or twice, usually on captured homeworlds ....

	03-06-2004 15:04									#74
	Increase Your PM Length

Vmxa1,
I have seen it - at least saved games, not the real action - and I have try it. I could conquer 2 races in a few turns (<15 turns), but I lack the diplomacy skills. And as soon as there are missile bases, I'm dead.
The game in 27 turns was not really fair, because it was in a time when he saved before diplomacy.
Later, he improved his skill and did not need to save - that's what he told me - that makes him below the 40, but not below the 30 anymore.

There are diferent keys in his strategy.

One is diplomacy. This is the most difficult one and the one which needs the most game experience.
He knows almost turn by turn which technology to demand (it evolves with turn #).
There are really weird things here. One I remember is, you could demand irridium cells to almost anybody on first turns - even the klackon - while everybody will go mad if you demand deuterium cells. And this is true, in a lesser extend, for other techs like drives (there, you have to know which races will accept, which will declare war). IIRC the GC techs are quiet easy to demand.
He knows what and when he may demand and to which race.

Another key is how to punch down defenses. His strategy is to be very good in GC (hence the importance of diplomacy). He does not shoot at the SB or BS, he needs them untouched. He sends a ship and assault it. Being Tele, he knocks down the planet defenses with the captured SB/BS (be carefull, I think there is a bug here: the game freeze if you capture the SB while there are still ennemy ships alive).
The first fights are decisive, because he uses one of the ships as decoy for missiles and if you have not the ion drive, it may take 2-3 turn for ships to close the SB. Later he builds a few empty CAs for just that purpose (nobody shoots at weaponless ships).
He NEEDS to capture ships and the sooner the better. He makes intensive use of them. He cannot conquer the galaxy without them. You thus need to know very, very, very well how to fight with crapy ship designs. He knows.

A third key is the race.
IIRC it is:
Tele - of course;
TransDim - this is what allowed him to go below the 30.
+ GC - he took the ++, but now he is omni, he had to lower something.
++ Off - do NOT take warlord, ++ Off allows you to shoot incoming missiles with crapy computers, warlord not. This is VERY important when you have titanium ships.
Omni - He NEEDS to know what are the planet defences before going there, only omni gives him the full info... and no darlock problem anymore. His greatest fear, iirc, are the fighter garrison. If a race has them, he knows he will be in trouble and he will need more ships.
neg: in food, prod, res and Growth (slaves will take care of those details).

I do not remember his tech tree, but it's a beline in ????... physics I think.

There are other details in his games, like giving merculites before attacking, so the missile bases have basic merc instead of fast/mrv nuke. Same for weapons.

Oh, and I almost forgot: mineral rich galaxy.

	04-06-2004 00:03									#75
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey Dry, sorry about being so contrary, but I like to see it for myself, when things don't fit.

I have generated a game, it is the first one out of the box and may or may not be the norm.

What you see if that you have some big problems to over come.

1- no real research so no range boost.
2-true you can get them to give your irridium, but it will not let you reach much.

3-you need at least one outpost and probably more. You productionis bad, so this will be a problem.

4-you need to refit your ships and that will be costly in money and time.

So it may be that you could let some of the planets starve to use workers for production. It could be that you could draw a better planet for food, but not real likely in a mineral rich map.

5-how do you win? A vote? may not be one for some time? Conquer? Lots of planets to take and they are far away.

So I say again lets see a log, it is only 40 turns, not a monument task. Accompanied by a save at the start and one just before winninig.

I am sure we would all love to learn a new trick. BTW the fact that you can extort the AI is why I tend to enforce use of repulsive trait. No more making them give you whole systems.

Here is the start, before I demanded and got the cells.

Attachment: save1.sav
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	04-06-2004 13:27									#76
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

vmxa1, the best thing I can do is to try to contact this friend, but it's a time since I haven't see him. I think/hope he still plays moo2. I will e-mail him and ask either for saved game or to play your game and make a log.
We will have to wait at least until monday for an answer.

	04-06-2004 15:47									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hi, I got an answer.
He will provide us with saved games, but as he is at work, this will not be possible before monday.
He commented what I stated. It looks more like a toss die game (no guarantee of success). So here some precisions:
- No research, no time.
- No refit (even for own ships), no time.
- It doesn't always work. 50% of galaxies will not allow it (omni lowered that).
- If you can have irridium on first turn, it's a potential 40 turns (otherwise it's more like 50)
- If you can also have ion, only then you got a potential <35 turn.
- For most those cases (irri + ion), win with the elections of turn 25 is obvious.
- 90% of the time you win at elections of turn 50.

	04-06-2004 20:59									#78
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yes, if the method is a vote, then it can be done. In fact it has been done in 7 turns with a charismatic race on a smaller map.

The thing is you need to get a vote triggered. I thought we were talking about a total conquest of all races.

No research, because that race can't do any and no time. It will get some research from RL's, but the game is over before a discovery can be made.

50 turns is not a problem as you can get into the 60's with a straight kill all races play. You use Warlord in this one.

	07-06-2004 11:44									#79
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

vmxa, I tried the 7 turn vote (I remember Moomin :-) but it did not work, probably because of patch changes ... The game never allowed a council meeting before T25 ...

	07-06-2004 14:06									#80
	Put an end to popups!

Here are the saved game.
Let's start with turn 15
And quote to my friend:

quote: Sorry not to have the point 0 but when I started it, I wasn't even thinking it will make THE hit !

	07-06-2004 14:09									#81
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I thought we were talking about a total conquest of all races.

That's correct, that's what we are talking about.

Turn 28

	07-06-2004 14:12									#82
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I think he felt insulted

quote: If they'd think I can have pleasure to "corion" my games since 4 years...

Turn 29

	07-06-2004 14:23									#83
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And just for the same price, we got an extra one:

quote: It's a my latest +20 turn, standard. On the rush, it should make a nice +40 or 45 but was optimized for an attack on Antares.

	07-06-2004 21:22									#84
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quote: Originally posted by bakalov vmxa, I tried the 7 turn vote (I remember Moomin :-) but it did not work, probably because of patch changes ... The game never allowed a council meeting before T25 ...

I can no longer recall if I try this or not. I know I almost never play on small maps, but you need contact to trigger the vote.

So I would expect this will be an advanced start. This gives you ships to get out and meet any races that did not alredy have contact on day one.

Moomin (now Spaced Cowboy) must have posted a save or the run was duplicated. I just can't remember now.

	07-06-2004 21:28									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Dry That's correct, that's what we are talking about. Turn 28

Ok, now I am confused. The post that 90% of time you win by vote is what got me.

So are we now saying the way to win is to eliminate all races? It is hard to keep track of the conditions.

I will look at the saves today. People should not feel insulted, because people ask for clarification and validation. How else can they understand?

	08-06-2004 02:24									#86
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I looked at the saves. I don't know what the version used for the games, but it seems clear that liberal use of the demand "feature" was used. This is legal, I just don't see the point in it.

As I have mentioned in the board many times, it is quite simple to demand the AI blind. This is why I use repulsive. No demanding tech or tribute or systems.

To aquire 20 systems spread all over in 15 turns, you must use the demand.

I did note that each of the three games I saw Drax was in play.

Anyway I enjoyed the opportunity to hear from another point of view. I thank you and your friend for the consideration and effort.

This could be another way to play from time to time. I use a simliar race to take down all civs on a huge map, with no demanding or trading. This is fun once a year or there abouts.

	08-06-2004 16:48									#87
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Sorry not to have been clear on the vote topic.

Let me first say I was wrong. It was not 27, it was 29.

Version is 1.31

The 90% wins via vote was only a side note to say: 'And you may even beat 29 if you accept to win via vote on turn 25'.

About demands. I'm sure he demands techs, I think he demands money. I do not think he demands systems. I really have no idea about tributes. And if you look at the race picks, you'll see that in this one he was even charismatic.

All games are the same game at different turns. So it's quite normal you saw Drax in all of them.

	08-06-2004 19:54									#88
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Why not demanding systems? The AI usually gives away the low pop systems easily ....

	08-06-2004 21:57									#89
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I know he was Chrismatic, that is why you get the great trade deals. I am sure he is demanding systems, why would you not?

I tried playing without being repulsive and not demanding stuff, but it is hard to hold the line. Kind of line a priest going to a strip club and not looking at the naked woman, just not going to happen.

This is why I take that trait. Otherwise I can demand every system that is not allowed. (They will not give up certain systems).

You start out by demanding a tribute (5 or 10%). Then some tech and then a system. You just keep getting stronger while they found system for you. It is funy, but not much challenge.

Then you also get these insanely good leaders. As a repulsive, you learn to get by without any leaders for a time an then only lame ones show. You don't get trade, you have to earn everything you get.

Worse yet they sometimes will flat out surrender. This was very common in the 1.0 to 1.2 versions.

I like said, I think it was a good job to recoqnize this ploy, I just don't allow myself to use it.

	08-06-2004 23:00									#90
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Hmm, by the time im strong enough to demand stuff I just take it by force.