31-03-2003 06:13									#31
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sorry if I was smug. I didnt mean to be. I was just pointing out one possible reason for the futility of the argument.

	31-03-2003 06:15									#32
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Wernazuma: In order for Christ to atone for sins, he must be fully God and fully man at the same time.

Why?

It seems, like the temptation, that he has to be human.

	31-03-2003 06:21									#33
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Obiwan: While most churches agree on the "fully human/ fully God" part nowadays, this was a hot topic of conversation in the early days of the church before Christian theology had really been hammered out. There were some Greeks (and the Gnostics too, IIRC) who believed that Jesus wasn't really human at all- He was just a divine hologram of sorts. God just made people see something that looked like a human, when it was just his pure spirit telling people stuff (this was partially from the whole Greek "The spirit is greater than the body, therefore a being of pure spirit [God] would never soil itself with a rotting earthly body"). Among others, like say some Jews, Jesus was a prophet, yes, but Son of God? No. And then there were people like the Arians, who believed that Jesus, being the Son of God, was neccessarily "less" than God himself. Sure, he was fully human, but he wasn't quite God- just part of him, or something.

Most of these creeds perished with the fall of Rome and less big cities to have religious diversity in, and the Church clamping down the findings of the Council of Nicea. While I happen to disagree with most of these early heresies, unfortunately the Church was a little too good at stomping resistance and hence we have the long stagnation until Martin Luther brought inter-Christian debate back to life.

Edit: Seems like Ned got in before me. Oh well.

	31-03-2003 06:29									#34
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There was a lot of confusion about Jesus divinity/humanity in the ancient world because of existing religious traditions. Polytheism was common, also common was the idea that a human could become a God or be part human, part God. The belief that Gods could appear in human form was also common.

	31-03-2003 06:43									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse There was a lot of confusion about Jesus divinity/humanity in the ancient world because of existing religious traditions. Polytheism was common, also common was the idea that a human could become a God or be part human, part God. The belief that Gods could appear in human form was also common.

The average person in the first centuries, schooled on the immortality of the gods, would be very confused to first be told that Christ died on the cross and that he was also God.

	31-03-2003 06:46									#36
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Not necessarily - Gods in some religions common at the time made sacrafices of themselves.

	31-03-2003 06:48									#37
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Indeed, there are many examples in ancient Egyptian religion and Hinduism as well as in the Americas with the Aztecs.

	31-03-2003 07:17									#38
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I have no clue, but I'm not Christian so I don't have to answer.

	31-03-2003 07:34									#39
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Apocalypse (or anyone, really):

quote: Satan tried to temp God in the book of Job. God really got pissed about this and put the smack down on Satan.

Yeah, but God put Job in that position. He gave all of Job's belongings to Satan to play with, just to prove a point, and rub it in the devil's face. But, yes, it backfired.

God kinda acts immaturely in the Old Testament, eh?

quote: You really annoy me in that you don't really take the bible as a whole. You say the bible is full of contridictions, but you don't really look at it fully. I'm not saying there aren't contridictions, but you really have no place to talk in this issue.

Why does the Bible have to be looked at fully? It's a collection of different books, written at completely different times, by completely different people, tied together somewhat loosely by the appearance of Yahweh & friends. It seems perfectly acceptable to critique certain books and not others.

	31-03-2003 07:41									#40
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quote: God kinda acts immaturely in the Old Testament, eh?

Cinch: You need to re-read Job. Satan argued that Job only loved God because of the blessings God provides to those who love him.

In order to prove Satan wrong, God has to let Job suffer so that it can be proved people do love God regardless of their current state.

It's not an arbitrary decision, but the only recourse for God to answer Satan's challenge.

	31-03-2003 07:43									#41
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quote: God kinda acts immaturely in the Old Testament, eh?

Further evidence that the Bible is man's creation and not God's. This is perfectly in keeping with the anthropomorphic view of fallible and human-like gods present in the old religions throughout the ancient world in both the Old and New World.

	31-03-2003 07:44									#42
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Yeah, but God put Job in that position. He gave all of Job's belongings to Satan to play with, just to prove a point, and rub it in the devil's face. But, yes, it backfired.

obiwan handled this satisfactorally.

quote: Originally posted by cinch Why does the Bible have to be looked at fully? It's a collection of different books, written at completely different times, by completely different people, tied together somewhat loosely by the appearance of Yahweh & friends. It seems perfectly acceptable to critique certain books and not others.

Well, if one book fills in where another left out...

	31-03-2003 07:44									#43
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Since one of the basics of being human is being limited in power, I think it is rather contradictory that a being can be both an omnipotent/omniscient God and still be a man. The only way for God to have been really human is to be non-omnipotent, non-omniscient and have a fear of death. Did Jesus have any of these things in the Xtian mythology?

	31-03-2003 07:46									#44
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ned:

CS Lewis has a good analogy that helps to understand Christ's atonement.

Christ bridges the gap between men and between God, a huge chasm. If Christ is not a man, he is like a bridge extending from God's end that does not quite reach man. Your argument has Christ being a bridge from Man's end that does not reach God. He can suffer, but all men break under temptation. Both examples are an insufficient bridge. What you need is someone both God and man to bridge the gap between the two, providing forgiveness for men's sins.

	31-03-2003 07:54									#45
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obi:

quote: Cinch: You need to re-read Job. Satan argued that Job only loved God because of the blessings God provides to those who love him. In order to prove Satan wrong, God has to let Job suffer so that it can be proved people do love God regardless of their current state.

If God is omniscient, why couldn't he just *know* that Job loved him only for his blessings? Why did he have to make Job lose all of his blessings to prove this to SATAN, of all beings?? God kills Job's children to prove a point.

And when Job, a just and right man, questions why his children have died? God responds with a poetic ode to... Himself.

	31-03-2003 07:58									#46
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quote: Originally posted by cinch If God is omniscient, why couldn't he just *know* that Job loved him only for his blessings? Why did he have to make Job lose all of his blessings to prove this to SATAN, of all beings?? God kills Job's children to prove a point. And when Job, a just and right man, questions why his children have died? God responds with a poetic ode to... Himself.

Like I said earlier...to lay the smack down.

	31-03-2003 08:04									#47
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quote: Originally posted by cinch Apocalypse (or anyone, really): Yeah, but God put Job in that position. He gave all of Job's belongings to Satan to play with, just to prove a point, and rub it in the devil's face. But, yes, it backfired. God kinda acts immaturely in the Old Testament, eh? Why does the Bible have to be looked at fully? It's a collection of different books, written at completely different times, by completely different people, tied together somewhat loosely by the appearance of Yahweh & friends. It seems perfectly acceptable to critique certain books and not others.

because it claims to be inspired by the same being

and if you are takign that claim seriously, you have to look at it as a whole

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:06									#48
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quote: Originally posted by cinch obi: If God is omniscient, why couldn't he just *know* that Job loved him only for his blessings? Why did he have to make Job lose all of his blessings to prove this to SATAN, of all beings?? God kills Job's children to prove a point. And when Job, a just and right man, questions why his children have died? God responds with a poetic ode to... Himself.

you know that there are others too

it was not for God's benifit that this is done, but for ours and the rest of creation that is not omniscient

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:08									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Since one of the basics of being human is being limited in power, I think it is rather contradictory that a being can be both an omnipotent/omniscient God and still be a man. The only way for God to have been really human is to be non-omnipotent, non-omniscient and have a fear of death. Did Jesus have any of these things in the Xtian mythology?

Christ deffinitely had worries

ever read about the garden?

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:08									#50
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quote: because it claims to be inspired by the same being and if you are takign that claim seriously, you have to look at it as a whole

I'm satisfied by that answer.

It introduces the question, though: If you are looking at the bible, why is it okay to ignore parts of it? Like, say, some of the restrictions and rules in Leviticus? Is it simply because of decisions made by the clerics and popes and such?

Just curious.

	31-03-2003 08:10									#51
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quote: Originally posted by cinch I'm satisfied by that answer. It introduces the question, though: If you are looking at the bible, why is it okay to ignore parts of it? Like, say, some of the restrictions and rules in Leviticus? Is it simply because of decisions made by the clerics and popes and such?

Probably because those laws were for the Jews and not gentiles...

	31-03-2003 08:10									#52
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once more look at the whole

the things in Leviticus pointing to Christs birth nad death were satisfied with Christs birth and death

like for example, we do not need to sacrifice any more because Christ is our sacrifice

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:13									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Christ deffinitely had worries ever read about the garden? Jon Miller

IIRC, he was worried about the pain of death, not potential oblivion. I don't think Jesus ever feared for his mortal soul, did he?

	31-03-2003 08:22									#54
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I always read it that way

edit: I don't actually beleive in all this soul business (at least not as a seperate thing), but I don't think that his worries were of the pain of dying

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:23									#55
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it seemed far more to be the pain of the spirit thant he pain of the flesh

and 'My God, My God, Why have thou forsaken me' does not sound like the cry of a man who has no worries

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:28									#56
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quote: the things in Leviticus pointing to Christs birth nad death were satisfied with Christs birth and death

quote: Probably because those laws were for the Jews and not gentiles...

So does that mean that people born before the time of Christ were more inherently evil than those who are born today? Did Christ negate original sin?

I think my main problem with christianity (in particular, as opposed to problems I have with religion in general) comes down to the fact that I have trouble reconciling the God of the old testament with the God of the new. He seems to act as two (or more) distinct beings, with different personalities, which is quite normal... for a human. But an all-knowing and all-powerful being that is not bound by time... should not change over time. God is all-loving, yet he destroys Sodom and Gomorah? This is a problem for me.

Sodomites are not worthy to live, because they fornicate and kill. Lot, on the other hand, a noble and God-fearing man, is held up as a pillar of excellence when he offers up his daughters to be raped by the townspeople. This seems to be a contradiction.

	31-03-2003 08:30									#57
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quote: and 'My God, My God, Why have thou forsaken me' does not sound like the cry of a man who has no worries

Yeah, but he was not actually saying that. He was quoting... Isaiah, was it?

Obi's gonna have to help me out here, because I'm not certain on the specifics...

But I do know that "why hath thou forsaken me?" is a line from a very famous (especially at the time) prophecy.

	31-03-2003 08:32									#58
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The Old Testament God makes more sense when you are a father

	31-03-2003 08:33									#59
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God is a god of both justice and mercy

God also judges the heart not the outward actions

there were not 10 people in all the city who were righteous

and if you consider it, isn't it a much bigger deal all those who are not being given enternal life? I mean that seems to be a much bigger death list than Sodom and Gomorah

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:37									#60
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quote: the things in Leviticus pointing to Christs birth nad death

What things?

quote: He seems to act as two (or more) distinct beings, with different personalities

Good point. What also always confuses me is that people always seem to think that the NT one is nicer than the OT. The OT one seems to be able to transcend his nasty combo of bipolarity and OCD to be a nice guy at times and even surprisingly openminded in his own way and even when he's in a bad mood he doesn't do anything worse than kill you and everyone you love. The NT one, on the other hand, seems to be a really twisted stalker-type who's into S&M.