31-03-2003 01:03									#1
	An honest question for Christians Increase Your PM Length

I know, there's times I am just sarcastic about Christianity, its contradictions, intolerance and the flaws of faith (not only Christian) itself.

This thread is also about an important contradiction in the bible. This seeming contradiction must be known since the early beginnings - this I'm sure. Accordingly, Christian churches have surely found an answer to it:

Before Jesus went to Jerusalem, when he was finally cruzified, he was in the desert for 40 days and he was tempted by the devil.
Now, how comes that Jesus, who is nobody else than God, part of the trinitarian union, should be subject of a temptation of "the dark side". It makes perfectly sense for a prophet or even for a "son of God", who's partially God/partially human, but not for someone who himself is the contrary of the devil...


Christians, I'd like to hear your answer to this, or the answer of your church.

	31-03-2003 01:07									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

god must delete this heresey!

	31-03-2003 01:09									#3
	Re: An honest question for Christians Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Now, how comes that Jesus, who is nobody else than God, part of the trinitarian union, should be subject of a temptation of "the dark side".

Haven´t you seen StarWars?

	31-03-2003 01:13									#4
	Re: An honest question for Christians Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III It makes perfectly sense for a prophet or even for a "son of God", who's partially God/partially human,

I've always been partial to the Origen view on this point and assumed that is what Jesus is.

	31-03-2003 01:15									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

maybe jesus became part of god when he was ressurected

	31-03-2003 01:23									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The point is that Jesus would become man, and in doing so experience all men do, including temptation.

	31-03-2003 01:34									#7
	Re: An honest question for Christians Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III partially God/partially human

Catholicism believes (this is one of the most important parts of Catholicism mind you) that Jesus is both full God and fully human. Thus he has the temptations that any other human would have.

	31-03-2003 02:50									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Apocalypse: This approach means that for being hujman, he had the potential to do wrong. Yet as also being fully God, he had no potential of doing so. As I understand it, the Catholic solution of the problem is just stating the very contradiction itself.
What sense do temptations have when you're a) God (which he FULLY is) and b) free from the original sin by being born by the virgin Mary anyway?
Well, the solution for b) is of course that following the temptation would be another original sin edqual to that of Adam, but a) remains unsolved unless God could possibly fall for the devil. There was no chance he falls, so why should the devil try? Or did the devil not know the true nature of God?

	31-03-2003 02:56									#9
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As a human, he was able to be tempted. That didn't mean he was going to give into the temptation.

"Yet as also being fully God, he had no potential of doing so."

I am not sure our theology teaches that God does not have potential to do wrong. As an omnipotent building, he could do whatever he wants, but because he is good he doesn't.

	31-03-2003 03:01									#10
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That is an interesting question, how can one be without sin (pure) and be tempted? If Jesus was both God and human, how can he be without the sin that plagues the rest of humanity? Seems he wasn't man, or he wasn't God - can't have it both ways. But Jesus never claimed to be God, others have claimed he was God. As for Jesus being the "son of God", I understand the Jews believed they were the children of God, so a Jew claiming to be a son or daughter of God was not an uncommon assertion and in no way implied actaul divinity.

	31-03-2003 03:12									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Jesus Christ was the son of a mortal woman, and God.
He was a man, which makes it all relevant.

	31-03-2003 03:16									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Damn, I'm not even Christian anymore (though I might become again for a girl ) and I seem to know more theology than some here.

quote: This approach means that for being hujman, he had the potential to do wrong. Yet as also being fully God, he had no potential of doing so. As I understand it, the Catholic solution of the problem is just stating the very contradiction itself. What sense do temptations have when you're a) God (which he FULLY is) and b) free from the original sin by being born by the virgin Mary anyway? Well, the solution for b) is of course that following the temptation would be another original sin edqual to that of Adam, but a) remains unsolved unless God could possibly fall for the devil. There was no chance he falls, so why should the devil try? Or did the devil not know the true nature of God?

Well, technically it isn't a contridiction because it works in a way people don't really have the capacity to fully understand. That's why. And don't think this is automatically silly because look at all the threads that ask people to help them with Calculus homework. Just because the vast majority of people don't understand Calculus, does not necessarily mean that Calculus is wrong.

Satan tried to temp God in the book of Job. God really got pissed about this and put the smack down on Satan. You really annoy me in that you don't really take the bible as a whole. You say the bible is full of contridictions, but you don't really look at it fully. I'm not saying there aren't contridictions, but you really have no place to talk in this issue.

Furthermore, you don't even have to have original sin to be tempted. My parent's dog doesn't have original sin, even if Catholicism is correct. It can still be tempted though. My father use to pick me up at a bus stop after school, and when we got home, I usually made myself a sandwich. I put the crust in his bowl. At the same time, my father usually wants to give him a walk. The dog likes walks too, but it also really likes crust. It usually ends up having to make some decision about which to do first and sometimes even starting making wimpering noises.

I really hate that dog.

quote: But Jesus never claimed to be God, others have claimed he was God.

Well, actually he claimed to be God indirectly when he said "I am who am" or something to that affect.

	31-03-2003 03:47									#13
	Re: An honest question for Christians Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III he was in the desert for 40 days and he was tempted by the devil.

He should have worn a hat, a lot of people who go to
church should wear hats too.

	31-03-2003 03:58									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Well, actually he claimed to be God indirectly when he said "I am who am" or something to that affect.

I'd have to see the "quote" and the context since Jesus repeatedly referred to God his Father who is in Heaven while Jesus was on Earth.

	31-03-2003 04:08									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yo...

http://users.binary.net/polycarp/divinity.html

quote: For most Catholic Christians, Christ's divinity is taken for granted. Today, however, this belief is being challenged, attacked and denied on several fronts. Jehovah Witnesses claim that Jesus was merely Michael the Archangel in human form, while Mormons reduce His divinity by claiming that everyone can be a god. Most cults also deny that Christ is God. Even some theologians seriously challenge this traditional belief. Others claim that Jesus was unaware of His divinity until after His Resurrection. Assuming that the Gospels are at least historically reliable, Jesus many times claims to be someone quite special. In Mark 2:28, Jesus claims to be the Lord of the Sabbath (Exodus 20:10). He also claims to be greater than the Prophet Jonah (Matt 12:41), King Solomon (Matt 12:42) and even the Temple (Matt 12:6). According to Mark 2:1-12, Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is "humble in heart." [Matt 11:29] Jesus, while arguing with the scribes, makes an interesting statement about Himself and Abraham: Jesus answered them: "I solemnly declare it: before Abraham came to be, I AM." At that they picked up rocks to throw at Jesus... [John 8:58-59; NAB] Jesus claims to have existed also before Abraham - something impossible for a mere human. Moreover the statement sounds grammatically awkward due to tense disagreement. It would sound better if He had said "I WAS" instead of "I AM." The present tense implies Christ's eternal existence as God. Even though Jesus does not explicitly call Himself "God", He does refer to Himself with a form of God's name. The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses: God replied, "I AM WHO AM." Then He added, "This is what you shall tell the Israelites: I AM sent me to you." [Exodus 3:14; NAB] God's name - YHWH (Yahweh) - translates as "I AM WHO AM" or simply "I AM." In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God's name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18). Other people in the Gospels also bear witness to His divinity. Even before His birth, He is referred to as Lord. Inspired by the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth greets the pregnant Mary: "But who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" [Luke 1:43; NAB] Elizabeth refers to Mary as "the mother of my Lord." Elsewhere in Luke 1, the title "Lord" refers to God, e.g. "an angel of the Lord" [Luke 1:11]. It should be noted that the name YHWH, being too sacred, could not be uttered, so the Hebrews said "Lord" instead. This passage in Luke suggests that Jesus was God while in the womb of Mary. Also when Jesus was an infant, the wise men worshipped Him according to Matthew 2:11. If the Christ Child were not divine, then this Gospel passage would present idolatry in a positive light. Later Jesus even allows people to worship-adore Him, as in John 9: 38. Finally after the Resurrection, Thomas greets Jesus as "My Lord and my God." [John 20:28; cf. Ps 35:23] Jesus confirms this greeting without any hesitation, objection or correction. As a teacher Jesus would be obliged to correct an error, especially a blasphemous error. According to secular reports, the 2nd-century Christians worshipped Christ as God. Pagans mocked the early Christians for worshipping a crucified God. According to 2nd-century Roman graffiti discovered in 1856 on Palatine, a Christian is caricatured as praying to a crucified figure. Its caption reads, "Alexamenos worships his god." In 111 A.D. Pliny the Younger wrote in a letter to Emperor Trajan about Christians: ...it was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and recite by turn a form of words to Christ as a god." [Pliny, Epistle 97] At least to the 2nd-century pagans, it appeared that Christians considered Jesus as their God. Some may object to Christ's divinity and cite Bible verses pertaining to His humanity, e.g.: ...there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. [1 Tim 2:5] Now it must be understood that Jesus Christ is also human. This mystery is called the Incarnation - God becoming man (Gal 4:4). As St. Paul writes: In Christ the fullness of Deity resides in bodily form. [Col 2:9; NAB] According to the Tome of Leo as proclaimed during the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D., Jesus is a divine Person with two natures: a divine nature and a human nature. Christ is both God and man. Others may object to Christ's divinity and point to Gospel passages that show His lack of knowledge. According to them, the all-knowing God would not need to ask the crowd, "Who touched my garments?" [Mark 5:30] or during the raising of Lazarus, to ask Mary, "Where have you laid him?" [John 11:34] In reply to their objection, it should be noted that these are rhetorical questions and do not prove Christ's ignorance. God the Father does not show ignorance when He asks Adam, "Where are you?" [Gen 3:9] or Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" [Gen 4:9] These questions are meant to draw a response from the people. A teacher may ask his students questions not out of ignorance but in order to test or teach them a lesson. Now a more troublesome verse concerns Christ's knowledge of Judgement Day: "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son but only the Father." [Mark 13:32; RSV] Bishop Richard Challoner responds to this verse in a footnote in the Douay-Rheims Bible: Nor the Son. Not that the Son of God is absolutely ignorant of the day of judgement, but that He knoweth it not, as our teacher; that is He knoweth it not so as to teach it to us, as not being expedient. In other words Christ knew the Day but was not commissioned to tell us. Some early Church fathers responded by claiming that Christ knew the Day but not through His humanity. For those who are interested, this and other difficult verses are discussed in detail in the book, The Consciousness of Christ by Fr. William G. Most (Front Royal, VA; Christendom College Press, 1980). Still some may object to Christ's divinity claiming that there is only one God - God the Father. Now it is true that there is only one God; however, God is also Holy Trinity: "...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." [Matt 28:19] The Trinity is three Persons in one God, and not three gods. Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Holy Trinity - God the Son. According to the Bible, "God is love" [1 John 4:16] but for love to be real, it must be between two or more persons. God the Father and God the Son, being two Persons in one divine nature (John 10:30), love each other. This love is so real that it is the third Person - God the Holy Spirit. This is analogous to the love between husband and wife that results in a child (but of course devoid of time and sex). A good discussion on the Trinity can be found in the book, Theology for Beginners by Frank J. Sheed (Ann Arbor, MI; Servant Books, 1981). In the Gospel Jesus claims to be an extraordinarily great person yet also humble. Jesus also claims the authority to forgive sins -offenses against God. He claims to be "I AM" -a form of God's name (John 8:24 & 58). The scribes are angered by His claims, seeing them as blasphemy (John 5:18; 10:30). According to the Gospel, even the demons (Mark 1:27) and the weather (Mark 4:41) obey Him. The several references in the Gospel to Christ's human weaknesses do not necessarily void His divinity but are a mystery contained in His Incarnation. As St. John writes: "In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." [John 1:1,14]

	31-03-2003 04:17									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

And to think I post on these very forums and no-one asks me.

Ive told you, God lives in my head and tells me to kill. Why don't I just ask him?

	31-03-2003 04:27									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

To err is human, to forgive is divine...

Does without sin mean not having sinned?

	31-03-2003 04:34									#18
	Support Apolyton

God says torch the hospital.

	31-03-2003 04:37									#19
	Remove this text

You got issues

	31-03-2003 04:56									#20
	Re: Re: An honest question for Christians Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Catholicism believes (this is one of the most important parts of Catholicism mind you) that Jesus is both full God and fully human.

That's the answer. And one of the great strengths of this for Christians is Jesus fully experienced what it is to be human. He understands.

	31-03-2003 05:09									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If you really were serious and "honest" about wanting to have a better understanding of some aspect of Christian theology, wouldn't it make more sense to talk with a local minister or priest, rather than posting a question on a board like this?

	31-03-2003 05:10									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Wernazuma:

I don't think this idea comes down to differences between churches.

In order for Christ to atone for sins, he must be fully God and fully man at the same time.

Christ has to feel fleshy temptations, to eat, of pride, but because he is still God, he does not succumb to these temptations.

I don't know if that is any clearer, Wernazuma, but this is one of the fundamental Christian creeds and should not vary between churches.



Nice to see all the intelligent posts!

	31-03-2003 05:24									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, I'm Orthodox Christian, not catholic/protestant, but what I was always taught is something along the lines of:

God understands sin in the same sense that a psychologist understands madness or a doctor understands illness; he is aware of how it feels, he knows the symptoms, he tracks its process, but it doesn't really affect him as such. Actually, in the Orthodox tradition, the idea of a sharp division between god and man is actually itself something of a symptom of the fall. Originally, the human race was in a state of continuous communion with god, and had free will but felt no compulsion to evil because evil ultimately doesn't profit its user. Well, that's a bad explanation, but basically, Adam theoretically knew he could eat the fruit, just like he could technically punch himself in the nuts. He didn't do the former, until a certain somebody suggested it, for the same reason he didn't do the latter. It never occured to him. Why would it? Adam had everything he could possibly need-plenty of food, abundant water, perfect weather, no dangers, literally the most beautiful woman on earth as his wife, etc. Sin was and is in that sense a complete abandonment of reason. Christ is sometimes called the "new adam" for just this reason. He was like the first man, unfallen, but unlike Adam he had omniscience and therefore knew better than to take up any offers to the contrary. Satan tempted him only insofar as he talked to him with offers that would probably tempt other human beings. Christ didn't kick him out of his head or what have you for reasons of his own; my guess is, he wanted to prove he was tough enough(which, if you believe in Christianity, he clearly was).
Does that explain enough?

	31-03-2003 05:33									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Wernazuma: I don't think this idea comes down to differences between churches. In order for Christ to atone for sins, he must be fully God and fully man at the same time. Christ has to feel fleshy temptations, to eat, of pride, but because he is still God, he does not succumb to these temptations. I don't know if that is any clearer, Wernazuma, but this is one of the fundamental Christian creeds and should not vary between churches. Nice to see all the intelligent posts!

Actually it varies quite a bit. Some Christian churches believe Christ is only divine and others that he is only humans. Others believe he is only part of both. Catholicism is the only one I am sure about on this issue.

	31-03-2003 05:42									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Some Christian churches believe Christ is only divine and others that he is only humans.

I'd be very interested to see these 'Christian' churches that deny either Christ's divinity or humanity.

	31-03-2003 05:53									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

its somewhat irrelevant since contradiction is at the base of xtianity.

	31-03-2003 05:58									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by yavoon its somewhat irrelevant since contradiction is at the base of xtianity.

Well aren't you just incredibly clever. We've never heard that kind of remark before. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. Now stop trolling, please. Other people on this board have said the exact same thing with far greater eloquence, so don't get smug. Sheesh.

	31-03-2003 06:01									#28
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 I'd be very interested to see these 'Christian' churches that deny either Christ's divinity or humanity.

There have occasionally been sects which have disputed this.

	31-03-2003 06:09									#29
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Apocalypse: This approach means that for being hujman, he had the potential to do wrong. Yet as also being fully God, he had no potential of doing so. As I understand it, the Catholic solution of the problem is just stating the very contradiction itself.

W, Your observation is why Arianism was so prevalent once upon a time.

	31-03-2003 06:13									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

W, Arianism may also be a way to unite all three monotheistic religions. But, of course, it was discredited by the Council of Nicea - almost by order of Constantine.