31-03-2003 08:41									#61
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quote: He was quoting... Isaiah, was it?

nope, psalms.

1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel. [1]
4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.
5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:
8 "He trusts in the LORD ;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him."

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother's breast.
10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.
13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.
14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me [2] in the dust of death.
16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced [3] my hands and my feet.
17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD , be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.
20 Deliver my life from the sword,
my precious life from the power of the dogs.
21 Rescue me from the mouth of the lions;
save [4] me from the horns of the wild oxen.

22 I will declare your name to my brothers;
in the congregation I will praise you.
23 You who fear the LORD , praise him!
All you descendants of Jacob, honor him!
Revere him, all you descendants of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or disdained
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.

25 From you comes the theme of my praise in the great assembly;
before those who fear you [5] will I fulfill my vows.
26 The poor will eat and be satisfied;
they who seek the LORD will praise him-
may your hearts live forever!
27 All the ends of the earth
will remember and turn to the LORD ,
and all the families of the nations
will bow down before him,
28 for dominion belongs to the LORD
and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship;
all who go down to the dust will kneel before him-
those who cannot keep themselves alive.
30 Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
31 They will proclaim his righteousness
to a people yet unborn-
for he has done it.

pretty impressive writting.
Lots of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels are quotes from the OT, which makes a lot of sense.

	31-03-2003 08:45									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko What things?

things relating to sacrifice

there are also things relating to health (all the unclean bits)

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:49									#63
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other stuff, like

"when a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall do him no wrong. The stranger who sojourns with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God."

have not been fulfilled, nor have our technololgy made them unimportant

so even Leviticus is still needed when looking at the Bible as a whole

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 08:51									#64
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quote: things relating to sacrifice there are also things relating to health (all the unclean bits)

this has what to do with:

quote: pointing to Christs birth nad death

?

	31-03-2003 08:53									#65
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Christians claim that Christ was the sacrifice

and that the ealier sacrifices of animals and the like were fulfilled by him

I think that is a pretty standard reading of the new testament

Jon Miller
the health bit was just me remembering a different type of law given in Leviticus that many feel to be unneeded

	31-03-2003 08:53									#66
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Thanks, Boshko.

quote: Lots of the sayings attributed to Jesus in the Gospels are quotes from the OT, which makes a lot of sense.

Yes, it certainly does.

Does that explain the whole "Jesus vs. The Fig Tree" thing, too?

I never got that one.

	31-03-2003 09:27									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The Old Testament God makes more sense when you are a father

Ah, yes the old "I made you; I can always make another" threat!

	31-03-2003 10:16									#68
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quote: Does that explain the whole "Jesus vs. The Fig Tree" thing, too? I never got that one.

There's no OT-connection in that one that I'm aware of.
Some other OT-connections besides innumerable quotations are being born in Bethlehem (for the David connection) the whole strange in and out of Egypt thing (for the Moses connection) and even how the money Judas got for betraying Jesus got spent: http://members.aol.com/JAlw/potters_field_prophecy.html

quote: Christians claim that Christ was the sacrifice and that the ealier sacrifices of animals and the like were fulfilled by him I think that is a pretty standard reading of the new testament

Right, there's plenty of stuff in the NT that looks back on the OT but very little that is

quote: pointing to Christs birth nad death

	31-03-2003 10:40									#69
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quote: Sodomites are not worthy to live, because they fornicate and kill. Lot, on the other hand, a noble and God-fearing man, is held up as a pillar of excellence when he offers up his daughters to be raped by the townspeople. This seems to be a contradiction.

cinch, I didn't see anyone answer this, so I'll give this a shot.

Not just fornicate and kill. They also sodomised.

Lot has a duty to protect his guest under the house, in this case the two angels instructed to inspect Sodom, which is why he chose to act the way he did.

Lot was not held up as a pillar for his behavior, in fact by exposing his daughters, he would also have been at fault. Even God-fearing men make mistakes, look at Abraham when he lies to the Egyptians.

So no contradiction.

quote: So does that mean that people born before the time of Christ were more inherently evil than those who are born today? Did Christ negate original sin?

No, we are still under the same original sin.

Christ is the fulfillment of the law, in that many of the pieces of the law still apply, except, as John already pointed out, the sacrificial system. Without the sacrificial system, you also have no cleanness or uncleanness as well.

	31-03-2003 10:50									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko There's no OT-connection in that one that I'm aware of. Some other OT-connections besides innumerable quotations are being born in Bethlehem (for the David connection) the whole strange in and out of Egypt thing (for the Moses connection) and even how the money Judas got for betraying Jesus got spent: http://members.aol.com/JAlw/potters_field_prophecy.html Right, there's plenty of stuff in the NT that looks back on the OT but very little that is

actually, according to christians, all of the stuff dealing with sacrifice was pointing to Christ, I already said that, could you address that?

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 11:23									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Before Jesus went to Jerusalem, when he was finally cruzified, he was in the desert for 40 days and he was tempted by the devil. Now, how comes that Jesus, who is nobody else than God, part of the trinitarian union, should be subject of a temptation of "the dark side". It makes perfectly sense for a prophet or even for a "son of God", who's partially God/partially human, but not for someone who himself is the contrary of the devil...

The Trinity is a doctrine that was written to prevent Eastern churches from becoming Heretic sects. To paraphrase the trinity doctrine: Jesus is like God but he is not God.
This is a reactionary document defending the fact that Jesus was a man at every point in his life. Some churches had begun to believe that Jesus started as human, became God to preofrom miracles, then the God part of him left as he died on the cross... heresy

as for the temptation part... taking classes that look at the bible on an academic level are good.

	31-03-2003 11:38									#72
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The devil was appealing to Jesus' human side. Kind of how Luke appealed to Darth Vader's human side...

	31-03-2003 12:12									#73
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quote: Originally posted by sprucemoose3311 The Trinity is a doctrine that was written to prevent Eastern churches from becoming Heretic sects.

Really?

Evidence please.

	31-03-2003 12:50									#74
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I think I would find it easy to resists temptation when my I knew my dad was the biggest cheese in town. It would have been far more impressive for him to resist temptaion before he had a clue he was number one son.

	31-03-2003 12:59									#75
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You should have a look at "The Last Temptation of Christ", a film based on the book by a Greek writer, whose name escapes me - Karantzakis (sp?).

It presents Jesus as a figure riven by self doubt and loathing for his "mission", resisting it at every step ebfore succumbing to the inevitable. Presents quite a plausible alternative view of Jesus, in some ways more satisfying than the "super confident" and always "in control" Jesus presented by the Christian churches.

Its also presents Jesus as fully human in the sense that his mission only slowly dawns upon or is thrust upon him. Contrast this with the "all knowing" Christ child.

	31-03-2003 15:09									#76
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Wow, lots of posts coming. Nice to see that the topic interests people. Before I get more detailed on some posts here, I think I have to clarify some things.

At first, I know about Arianism and personally think such a Christology is much more convincing in this point at least.
Yet Arianism has died out, was erradicated more or less peacefully and labeled as heresy.
I also know that some early gnostic sects had very weird ideas about the manhood or divinity of Christ, although I'm not familiar with the details.
What I rather want to know is how you Christians here deal with it, whether you find the positions of your churches convincing and what they are. I know something about the early christians (not too much either though), but I'm very unfamiliar on how Christians deal with it for themselves. I'm not seeking spiritual guidance or something like someone here supposed. That's why I don't ask a local priest.

I don't understand why Apocalypse - who claims to be not even Christian - seems to be the only one to question my honesty and thinks I'm annoying.

	31-03-2003 15:22									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse You should have a look at "The Last Temptation of Christ", a film based on the book by a Greek writer, whose name escapes me - Karantzakis (sp?). It presents Jesus as a figure riven by self doubt and loathing for his "mission", resisting it at every step ebfore succumbing to the inevitable. Presents quite a plausible alternative view of Jesus, in some ways more satisfying than the "super confident" and always "in control" Jesus presented by the Christian churches. Its also presents Jesus as fully human in the sense that his mission only slowly dawns upon or is thrust upon him. Contrast this with the "all knowing" Christ child.

Of course this view of Jesus was denounced by all the main religions.

	31-03-2003 17:24									#78
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Well, was my answer okay w/ you? Looking back, it seems a little obtuse to me, but was that the kind of response you're looking for?

	31-03-2003 19:22									#79
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Wernazuma, well, Jehova Witnesses would be modern day arians, they do not accept the trinity, they say that Jesus was the first creation of God and that God created all other things through Jesus, sometimes they identifie Jesus as the Archangel Gabriel.
They say that the holy spirit is not God but the force of God acting in us, something like magnetism..
They are fans of historical revisionism, they portray Arius as the good guy and Ambrosius as the apostate.

The oriental churches (oriental, is not the same as eastern/orthodox), like the coptic church of Egypt are monophisites, they accept the trinity but they deny the humanity in Jesus, they say he was fully and only God.
In my opinion this heresy damaged the most christianity, the Pope of Alexandria was very mad at the other patriarchs in the apostolic cities and christianity was quite divided because of it, this division helped a lot the muslims when they started their conquest..

The only nestorian church I know nowadays is the Assyrian church, they accept the trinity but they separate completely the divinity and humanity in Jesus, they would say something like there are two persons in christ, one divine and one human.

Most of the christians in the world protestants, catholics and orthodox/eastern believe in the trinity and that Jesus was 100% God and 100% Human, not separated.

In the USA some pentecostal churches believe in modalism, that is there is only one God, and sometimes he shows himself as Jesus, as Jehova or as the holy spirit.

I believe in the orthodox doctrine.

I find you annoying

	31-03-2003 19:28									#80
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Do you think Jesus wanted this debate over what he was or wasn't

	31-03-2003 22:04									#81
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Elok: Sure, every answer is valid. I want to know how people sove the thing for themselves, not in the end pointing with the finger at anyone saying: "But your opinion is not consistent, nananananana." It's surely something to think of for Christians though, that's it.

TheStinger: You state exactly what I also think about the dogmatic quarrels that arose around Christology. How could the question about Christ's nature divide whole churches and cause them to accuse each other to be heretic? Shouldn't the message be the most important thing?

	01-04-2003 02:41									#82
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In my opinion for being a christian you have to believe in at least 2 contradictions, God is one and God is three, and Jesus is 100% human and 100% God.
All at the same time.

	01-04-2003 03:03									#83
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Actually there are more contradictions.

The classical "Can God create a weight that he cannot lift, If he is is a God who can do anything". It's pure playing around with human logics... One would expect that person who is omnipotent can do anything... then can he do something that will prove his inability? Its a trap. You cant answer yes to both of them.

I didnt really pay attention to stuff in church so I cant answer it, but Im sure its some kinda lame evasive answer along the lines of you cant reason god's ability withing human mind because he is beyond human logic. (So yes Chritians should be saying yes to both of them in my example!)

As far as I know, Christ is a bridge between man and God. Therefore he is both God and man. He's not like 50% god 50% man either. He is fully both.

Bottomline. If you're a beleiver you answer to yourself that God can do things that are beyond human logic, therefor no questioning about petty stuff is necessary. If you're not a beleiver, you dont bother asking question about some deity that isnt legitimate to begin with for you anyway. So problem solved.


I dont mean to put down other people's belief by saying that their religion requires absolute acceptance of something bizzare w/o questioning... Their arguement is legitiamte if it is true. Its kinda like teaching a child Physics. They may not have the mathematical skill necessary to understand how certain equations are derived. They just have to accept it.

So if you believe in it good for you. If not good for you too.

Last edited by Zero on 01-04-2003 at 03:11

	01-04-2003 03:20									#84
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quote: Do you think Jesus wanted this debate over what he was or wasn't?

TheStinger:

I think that Jesus would rather people debated over him rather than ignoring him altogether. The purpose of the debate will be to provide valid evidence as to the existence of Christ, not only convincing those who are not Christians, but also reinforcing those who are Christians.

	01-04-2003 04:39									#85
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Of course this view of Jesus was denounced by all the main religions.

Sure, the Hierarchies huffed and puffed about aspects of the book and film, particularly the way it undermined the "superhuman" official Jesus and dared to show Jesus having a sexuality and natural sexual desires as opposed to the official "asexual" Jesus, but Nikos Kazantzakis's book has been very influential. It presents in many ways a Christ for our times. A Christ people can relate to. A human Christ.

The part I liked best was when he hears the thundering foot steps of the heavenly host following every step of his own and tells them to sod off That would be annoying

The most moving part was where assasins come to kill Lazarus because he is living proof that a man can be raised from the dead.

Here is an article about it. Note that the book has been used in seminaries.

http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9602/iannone.html

	01-04-2003 05:00									#86
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"but the teaching at Catholic schools placed such an emphasis on the divine side that if Jesus walked into a room, you'd know he was God because he glowed in the dark," instead of being someone "you could sit down with, have dinner or a drink with."



Good post, AH.

	01-04-2003 06:01									#87
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This view of unreal view of Jesus is not of course confined to catholicism.

	01-04-2003 07:14									#88
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What bothered me is that God deliberately adds the Tree of Knowledge in the first place. "I'm an omniscient being, so I'll put a tree here that I don't want anyone to mess with." Then, to top it off he tells Adam not to eat it. Anyone see the logic problem? That's like me putting a kid in a room with candy and telling them to eat all they want - except for the Skittles. Huh?

I also think it's weird that Jesus talks to God - they're the same guy, right? Not only that, but Jesus obviously isn't omniscient - he asks for guidance. "Hello brain - should I go to class today or not?"

	01-04-2003 07:50									#89
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Jesus, the Father and the holy spirit are God, it is possible for Jesus to talk to the father because Jesus has a personality of his own..
I think I recall reading somwhere that God is what happen between the Son and the Father in the Spirit.
That is rather complicated, because that would make God an action and not a being..

	01-04-2003 07:57									#90
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quote: Originally posted by MacTBone What bothered me is that God deliberately adds the Tree of Knowledge in the first place. "I'm an omniscient being, so I'll put a tree here that I don't want anyone to mess with." Then, to top it off he tells Adam not to eat it. Anyone see the logic problem? That's like me putting a kid in a room with candy and telling them to eat all they want - except for the Skittles. Huh?

I've always had a problem with that too