31-03-2003 12:03									#1
	How CNN gets their footage... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yesterday I've seen a report on german TV how CNN gets their footage from Iraq. They showed a CNN report, followed by COMPLETE, raw, unedited footage.

On CNN we could see fierce battle, a Iraqi tank burning and a APC being blasted by an anti-tank missile. US soldiers firing on Iraqi positions and covering.

Then they showed what actually happened. A US soldier running to the abandoned tank, throwing a grenade inside. Voila, burning enemy tank. He ran back and the camera crew made another shot with him firing while showing the burning tank.

Then they found an abandoned APC. The same dude ran over to it, opened the rear door (how stupid would that be?) and 30 secs later they blast it with a anti-tank missile.

Part 3. A US soldier standing next to a building calls the camera crew over, telling them where to stand. Now he gets behind the side of the house and tries firing but the gun wont fire. How embarassing. Another soldier comes over instead and starts shooting at some houses about 100m across. Just 2 or 3 seconds later a totally unsuspecting civilian on a bicycle drives by the house these dumbasses where shooting at! (how reckless...)

...just shows that you should not believe what you see on TV, especially not CNN!

	31-03-2003 12:07									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm confused. You're upset because CNN doesn't show every aspect of the battle?

1) Grenade-in-tank isn't surprising, it's been shown on CNN in many cases before (even when they threw a grenade inside the hijacked M1A1 tank in San Diego years ago)
1a) Why would they fire on the tank after the grenade went off? Gee, I don't know -- maybe someone is fleeing the tank or trying to?
2) Guns do jam
3) And I'm still confused how the stupid civilian riding on a bicycle in the middle of the line of fire is reckless on anyone but the civilian's part?

	31-03-2003 12:11									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I've got a job for you: Take this megaphone, fly to Iraq, and before a battle occurs, you can use your megaphone to tell all of the civilians not to ride their bikes in the middle of the line of fire. That way the US troops won't be so reckless.

	31-03-2003 12:13									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

and btw...

quote: ...just shows that you should not believe what you see on TV, especially not CNN!

But then why should we believe what you just saw on TV?

	31-03-2003 12:18									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Oooo, you a CNN reporter? Chill....

The boys were playing in a no-enemy area. YOu cannot just shoot around like that. There's civiliand around. Oh, wait... we dont care about the civilians, anyway.

Anyway... it shows how easy it is to falsify reports. This was a CNN report. The other government influenced ones do it too. You just dont get to see their original footage...

Something else. It shows how "indipendent" CNN really is.

This is not supposed to be a rant, neither I'm upset. I just told you what I saw, 'cause you'll NEVER gonna see it on American TV stations. The comments were about the recklessnes of the soldiers. There could have been mines around. The door to that APC could have been rigged.

	31-03-2003 12:24									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

He, he. Just remembered a reporter from Sarajevo, Bosnia. In the 80s he was supposed to make a trip to Berlin and do a report from the Berlin wall.

What he did was go to the local brick factory, stand in front of the wall do a report like he was in Berlin.

Unfortunately, someone got wind of it, and he got fired...

	31-03-2003 12:38									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Daz Oooo, you a CNN reporter? Chill.... The boys were playing in a no-enemy area.

Exactly what areas in Iraq are "no-enemy areas"?...

quote: Something else. It shows how "indipendent" CNN really is.

I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill...
People understand that things like that are happening, it's not shown every single time. It's combat, grenades are used, guns jam, etc.

CNN was probably showing a brief summary of the battle: ie: US troops blew up the APCs and killed the Iraqi soldiers...they didn't feel they needed to micro-report how a soldier's gun jammed.

I've seen plenty of footage on CNN that certainly wasn't favorable to the Americans, from Iraqi Civilians screaming at the troops to get out, to them complaining about how the US is in it just for the oil, the total chaos of when they come under fire out of nowhere, etc.

quote: This is not supposed to be a rant, neither I'm upset. I just told you what I saw, 'cause you'll NEVER gonna see it on American TV stations.

Yeah, okay, I've seen footage far worse than that on American TV stations.

Where are you from, and why is your horse so high?

BTW, I realize this wasn't a rant of yours, it was a troll.

A very typical one, where the lefty Euro shrugs and sighs, puts forth a really weird and incomprehensible argument and wags a finger saying "and you guys in America wouldn't know this since your stations don't ever show it!". When, in fact, they've shown far worse than that. Sometimes live, even.

Get over it -- CNN didn't deem it newsworthy to show guns jamming every time it occurs. Oh the humanity of it all.

	31-03-2003 12:49									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ack, dude. Why are you so tight about this thing? Im not saying the others dont do it. Al Jazeera and the others are probably worse. I too hate it when they surround wounded kids with 50 reporters and scare the wits out of them. So get off it.

What I saw was 15 minute long uncut material used for the CNN report. It showed 2 US soldiers driving around in a Jeep with a camera crew. No battle, no enemy, no action at all. It could have been filmed in Kuwait. They made the whole thing up and told the camera men to film it. Too easy.

The funny part of it is that the WHOLE footage got to the (obviously) wrong TV station that showed it all. Trust me, I will laugh just as hard when they catch AL Jazeera making stuff up.

	31-03-2003 12:56									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Daz Ack, dude. Why are you so tight about this thing? Im not saying the others dont do it. Al Jazeera and the others are probably worse. I too hate it when they surround wounded kids with 50 reporters and scare the wits out of them. So get off it.

All I'm saying is you're being incredibly dense about it.

Yes, CNN didn't show the full 15 minute long uncut material used for the CNN report. Why? Because it's 15 minutes long!

CNN has other things to show, so they tend to do things civilized networks do called reports. These typically are summarized events, and they are edited substantially so a 15 minute long cut becomes a 30 second long cut to give the jist of a story.

From what you've described, the jist of the story was certainly made in CNN's report, and they certainly aren't censoring it or using it for the sake of propaganda because they don't show the full 15 minute clip.

And I think the "you'll NEVER see this on American TV" thing tells me just how deep the propaganda is across the pond.

You seem to think I'm making this into an us vs them thing. I have no doubt Al Jazeera slants all of the stories, but in all honesty, CNN's reports have been very balanced in this conflict, on par with CBC's.

I've seen adequate coverage of the anti-war protestors domestically, I've seen adequate coverage of the anti-American sentiment many Iraqis and most of the Arab world has (CNN spends a significant amount of time showing what Arab networks are showing, even Chinese english-language networks, and they're very laughable...).

Anyway, the moral of the story is, you obviously don't know what American TV will show. You heavily implied CNN didn't show all those clips you mentioned because it's being used as a propaganda tool of some kind. I think it's fairly obvious CNN didn't show all those clips because, well, it's boring and irrelevant?

	31-03-2003 13:02									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Asher Yeah, okay, I've seen footage far worse than that on American TV stations.

Like?

	31-03-2003 13:09									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Like?

I've already mentioned a few... but the general hatred of the people in Iraq towards the soldiers, how many of the US soldiers tried to aprehend potential POWs rather violently, general confusion a lot of the time (especially when taking fire), the damaged Apaches after their runin with the Medina republican guard division, shooting and killing the occupants of a pickup truck which was driving very rapidly at a US road checkpoint, ended up killing a man and his 9-year old boy (the troops buried the boy), etc.

All of this on CNN...and I consider all of those worse than guns jamming, throwing a grenade in an Iraqi APC, etc.

	31-03-2003 13:19									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well the story is apparantly about CNN's "embedded" journalists making up a fight where there was none. I haven't seen either CNN's report nor the german one, but I don't know what the point is of a comparison of war coverage and a report on war coverage.

CNNI has some balancing contributions on, but I do not think that is enough to outweigh the legions of retired US military guys they have on air all the time.

	31-03-2003 13:32									#13
	Tired of ads?

Are you Ted Turner to be that defensive?

1. You wont see it on American TV because it is an American fake. Same as you wont see a Al Jazeera fake on Al Jazeera. Thought that was obvious. Dont be so paranoid. I dont hate the US.

2. It is a TOTALLY faked report. That is obvious. The FUNNY part is that the whole 15 minutes, from which it is obvious that it is faked, got into the hands of another TV station that aired it all.

I think the whole thing is funny. And the shooting was a bit reckless. Thats all. I am not at all upset by the fact that it is a fake. Its war! What else do people expect?!

	31-03-2003 13:54									#14
	Put an end to popups!

I'm still confused of why you think it's a fake. I'll walk you through why, again:

quote: A US soldier running to the abandoned tank, throwing a grenade inside. Voila, burning enemy tank. He ran back and the camera crew made another shot with him firing while showing the burning tank.

- How did they know the tank was abandonded? They threw the grenade inside incase it was a trap.
- He was probably firing because he might have seen movement, someone getting out of the tank, etc.

quote: Then they found an abandoned APC. The same dude ran over to it, opened the rear door (how stupid would that be?) and 30 secs later they blast it with a anti-tank missile.

Okay, they found an abandoned APC.
It's standard US policy to destroy enemy equipment once they've found it. Now how do you destroy an APC? A grenade? No, a grenade isn't made to take out an APC or tank. So what do you use? An anti-tank missile.

It sounds more likely to me that the German TV might have been faking it, making a story out of nothing or misunderstanding what's going on.

	31-03-2003 14:04									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Daz Ack, dude. Why are you so tight about this thing?

Because, your a "philosopher"

I recommend you terminate the debate. Hes as hard as a rock (Almost like an American teenager. Though I dont know his age). He can't take friendly advice, much less go through a debate calmly and rationally.

So theres just no point

	31-03-2003 14:06									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hmm...I'm essentially repeating my above post.

Last edited by Comrade Tassadar on 31-03-2003 at 14:19

	31-03-2003 14:08									#17
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 I recommend you terminate the debate. Hes as hard as a rock (Almost like an American teenager. Though I dont know his age). He can't take friendly advice, much less go through a debate calmly and rationally.

I don't take "friendly" advice from someone with a condescending tone, and especially when it's given after the fact when I've already apologized for something. I found it in poor form, but you can't tell the difference.

	31-03-2003 14:18									#18
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Daz Are you Ted Turner to be that defensive? 1. You wont see it on American TV because it is an American fake. Same as you wont see a Al Jazeera fake on Al Jazeera. Thought that was obvious. Dont be so paranoid. I dont hate the US.

Quick quiz. Which major western power lost a head of state due to the efforts of a couple of reporters?

Does anyone think that American media as a whole is not credible, really?

	31-03-2003 14:21									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

"Quick quiz. Which major western power lost a head of state due to the efforts of a couple of reporters?"

A long time ago, in better times...

	31-03-2003 14:22									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't take "friendly" advice from someone with a condescending tone,

Yawn. I tried to tell you (and I sucessfully did, once) that I meant it in no condescending tone. However it's apparent that you can't tolerate anyone being better than you in any way at anything, so....I see no need to re-hash this.

	31-03-2003 14:24									#21
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Yawn. I tried to tell you (and I sucessfully did, once) that I meant it in no condescending tone. However it's apparent that you can't tolerate anyone being better than you

I don't care how you meant it, that's how it came out. It was pointless, stupid, and completely unthoughtful on your part. I was in a bad mood so I told you to piss off, and your response to that? Keep replying.

quote: I see no need to re-hash this.

Apparently not, Einstein, you just dragged this up on a public forum.

	31-03-2003 14:29									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ok. This should be my last post on this topic, clarifying stuff.

The 15 minute material showed the soldiers walking around a few abandoned tanks and talking calmly. It looked like a small village or something. No real signs of battle could be seen, or heard. They clearly talked about what they are going to do and what to film.

I know you didnt see this, and I know that by being a "european leftie" I cannot be trusted, but it WAS like that.

Once again. I dont THINK it was a fake. I, and the TV station that showed it, and 100% of the viewers KNOW that.

Please folks. Dont flame....for whatever reason.

	31-03-2003 14:30									#23
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Quick quiz. Which major western power lost a head of state due to the efforts of a couple of reporters?" A long time ago, in better times...

Why do you think the same thing could not happen now?

I don't see anyone's journalists, grouped on nationality, to have any higher credibility than the Yanks, with very few exceptions. Most have far less.

	31-03-2003 14:34									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't care how you meant it, that's how it came out. It was pointless, stupid, and completely unthoughtful on your part.

Unthoughtful? At least I put a little more thought that "piss off"

quote: I was in a bad mood so I told you to piss off, and your response to that? Keep replying.

Yes...You see, when someone tells someone on an internet forum to "piss off", usually that inflames the reciever and therefore they do just the opposite.

That knowledge is usually used by people who do a common internet tactic called "trolling"

quote: Apparently not, Einstein, you just dragged this up on a public forum.

Hmm.....You detect an oh-so-subtle way of dragging it out into the forums, but you don't even realize it

I would love to continue this in PM, but....Thats impossible, isn't it?

	31-03-2003 14:36									#25
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Daz Ok. This should be my last post on this topic, clarifying stuff. The 15 minute material showed the soldiers walking around a few abandoned tanks and talking calmly. It looked like a small village or something. No real signs of battle could be seen, or heard. They clearly talked about what they are going to do and what to film.

I'm completely confused about why you thought this would add anything to your case.

quote: Once again. I dont THINK it was a fake. I, and the TV station that showed it, and 100% of the viewers KNOW that.

I'm sooo glad I don't live in Europe.

If I didn't know better, I'd say you were French.

How do you KNOW it's faked?
Your rationale, as presented in this thread:
1. Soldiers summoned the camera crews when they thought they'd be doing something "cool" (Apparently some soldiers like attention, go figure!)
2. They blew up an abandoned APC with an Anti-Tank rocket (destroying enemy equipment...standard fair)
3. Soldiers gave advice on what to film (Apparently the reporters don't know everything happening all the time, and it's his job to get the good pictures...)

This seems all very normal to me. In all honesty, it sounds more like someone has a bone to pick with CNN and concocted with story, leading the naive audience along, painting a picture of the evil, biased, propaganda-filled American media which set up staged battles for fun...

Actually, I think it says more about that German TV channel than CNN. They aired 15 minutes of nothing, with a misleading story...

	31-03-2003 14:38									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

In times of war, there is almost no objective reporting. Just yesterday I heard from our reporters in Kurdistan, that the US troops expelled few reporters. The ones in Kuwait are also being shown what they needed to see, with absolutely no freedom of moving.

This is of course understandable, cause you cannot have journalists running around your def/offensive positions with satelite phones.

Same applies to the Iraqis. Think about it.

Before, and after the war....another story...

	31-03-2003 14:38									#27
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Unthoughtful? At least I put a little more thought that "piss off"

You wouldn't want me to be more thoughtful when I'm in a bad mood and somebody is pissing me off. It's for the better of everyone...

quote: Hmm.....You detect an oh-so-subtle way of dragging it out into the forums, but you don't even realize it

Does this make sense at all?

Look: You were acting like a tw4t, I treated you like one, and you got angry. Deal with it.

Then to further dig yourself a hole, you drag it out in public.

	31-03-2003 14:40									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Daz In times of war, there is almost no objective reporting. Just yesterday I heard from our reporters in Kurdistan, that the US troops expelled few reporters.

This is true.
The US had strict rules for reporters who were there as embedded reporters. The US expelled a few of those for breaking those rules, which jeapordized operational security. CNN covered this, by the way.

The US did not expell any unilateral reporters. If you'll recall, Iraq was the one doing that...

	31-03-2003 14:42									#29
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Daz This is of course understandable, cause you cannot have journalists running around your def/offensive positions with satelite phones. Same applies to the Iraqis. Think about it.

Think about what you are saying.

Iraqi journalist. 'Report what Saddam wants or die.'

Most other journalists. 'Not like in Iraq.'

Some lucky few journalists. 'Free to say what ever the hell their publishers will print or broadcast.'

	31-03-2003 14:43									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Asher: Have you actually seen the 15 minutes of film you're talking about?

No? Didn't think so....

I haven't seen it either, and I guess that your version of events is probably closer to the truth than Daz's, but nevertheless it seems odd that you would attack his interpretation of the footage without even having seen it yourself.

Like I said, I'm inclined to believe Daz is just trolling, but I'm certainly not going to argue about it if I haven't had the chance to forge my own opinion of the footage in question. To do so seems silly.