02-04-2003 08:12									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola Iraqui military were observed and reported days ago to have been sanitizen the market place of all debris of the missle that landed there. I and sure they have also had time to collect and use fragments of USA missles that have struck elsewhere.

You might be right, but I find it hard to believe the Iraqis would spend so much time collecting all of the debris from the hundreds of bombs that have hit Baghdad and the thousands of fragments created from the explosion.

	02-04-2003 08:18									#32
	Re: Re: Proof that US cruise missile hit Iraqi marketplace Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior I don't think a wink smiley is appropriate. If you expressed condolences, it would have been ok, but you didn't. This is sad. We're supposed to be able to keep better control of our weapons.

What? Do we have to express condolences everytime we start a thread that involves death. And Condolences to whom? To the American government because their lies have been explosed?

If this was a thread reporting for the first time that civilians were killed in a marketplace then condolences might be in order, but this about finding out who dropped the bomb/missile/whatever.

	02-04-2003 08:31									#33
	Re: Re: Re: Proof that US cruise missile hit Iraqi marketplace Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What? Do we have to express condolences everytime we start a thread that involves death. And Condolences to whom? To the American government because their lies have been explosed?

What lies, Saddam lover ? The only thing exposed is that four days after the explosion, a British journalist found a piece of US made ordnance that happened to be identifiable as such.

The US might have hit it, the Iraqis might have done it and planted "evidence", or the Iraqis may have shot down a US cruise missile and it landed where it did as a result of that. We didn't know before, and we don't know now.

quote: If this was a thread reporting for the first time that civilians were killed in a marketplace then condolences might be in order, but this about finding out who dropped the bomb/missile/whatever.

No, this is about blaming the US based on a piece of convenient "evidence" when there's absolutely no way to know how it got there.

	02-04-2003 09:19									#34
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This rather reminds me of the story from GW1 in which the Iraqis produced a section of another tomahawk, full of "shell holes", and claimed that they'd shot it down (using an S-60 IIRC?).
It had about 5-6 holes in a section < 1m long.
They didn't even take account of the rate of fire of the weapon nor the speed of the missile when they faked it.

	02-04-2003 09:48									#35
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat No, this is about blaming the US based on a piece of convenient "evidence" when there's absolutely no way to know how it got there.

Look at the way the story unfolds. The reporter did not find the evidence and then link it to an American weapons manufacturer. The link was spotted by a newspaper reader.

You may choose to ignore the evidence, but anwways there is no doubt that the civilians died because the US was bombing Baghdad.

Even if the explosion was caused by the Iraqi anti-missile defences, these defences were firing because the US was attacking. No attack, no casaulties. The Bush administration's attempt to blame the Iraqi for these deaths is a rather lame spin.

	02-04-2003 09:55									#36
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In Gulf War I, didn't Iraqi AA fire hit a cruise missile that sent it off-course?

	02-04-2003 10:59									#37
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quote: Even if the explosion was caused by the Iraqi anti-missile defences, these defences were firing because the US was attacking. No attack, no casaulties. The Bush administration's attempt to blame the Iraqi for these deaths is a rather lame spin.

	02-04-2003 11:02									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

I agree, it's great logic.

Let's play with it some more.

No Saddam, no attack, no casualties.
No Iraq, no attack, no casualties.
No Man, no attack, no casualties.

Sweet.

	02-04-2003 11:05									#39
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quote: No Saddam, no attack, no casualties. No Iraq, no attack, no casualties. No Man, no attack, no casualties.

Exactly. All of our friendly fire deaths should be counted as killed by the Iraqis. Saddam brought on this war with his defiance, so all the deaths are his fault.

	02-04-2003 11:08									#40
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quote: Even if the explosion was caused by the Iraqi anti-missile defences, these defences were firing because the US was attacking. No attack, no casaulties. The Bush administration's attempt to blame the Iraqi for these deaths is a rather lame spin.

So basically, you agree that the whole point of this thread, a proof that a US missile struck the market, is lost, and you backtrack to safer grounds?

	02-04-2003 11:36									#41
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Oh that's good. The Iraqis act in self-defence, but it's their fault for defending themselves.



And murder victims have themselves to blame for allowing the murderer to see them.

	02-04-2003 11:37									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Oh that's good. The Iraqis act in self-defence, but it's their fault for defending themselves.

If the Iraqis act in self-defence by launching shoddy AA artillery above populated areas when they know damn well their AA fire won't detur the cruise missiles and just comes back down, I'd say yes, it is their own fault.

	02-04-2003 11:38									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So basically, you agree that the whole point of this thread, a proof that a US missile struck the market, is lost, and you backtrack to safer grounds?

Nope. All we've seen here is some desperate clutching at straws.

The best one has been that the Iraqis clean up all the fragments from the thousands of bombs dropped on their country so any fragments that are found must have been planted.

	02-04-2003 11:39									#44
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I am glad that we all agree that it was not a US missile, but an Iraqi one. Now, that the starting issue of the thread was dealt with, we can go on to the usual Iraq thread mambo jumbo.

	02-04-2003 11:56									#45
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The only evidence we have is that it was an American-built missile/bomb that killed the civilians in the marketplace.

	02-04-2003 12:48									#46
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You have circumstantial evidence of a very dubious nature. Not too impressive...

	02-04-2003 14:55									#47
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Proof that US cruise missile hit Iraqi marketplace Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Look at the way the story unfolds. The reporter did not find the evidence and then link it to an American weapons manufacturer. The link was spotted by a newspaper reader. You may choose to ignore the evidence, but anwways there is no doubt that the civilians died because the US was bombing Baghdad. Even if the explosion was caused by the Iraqi anti-missile defences, these defences were firing because the US was attacking. No attack, no casaulties. The Bush administration's attempt to blame the Iraqi for these deaths is a rather lame spin.

And if the ****ing Hussein regime had complied with relevant UNSCRs from 12 years ago, sanctions would have been lifted and this war wouldn't even be happening, so it still goes right back to the US.

And Iraqi air defenses are firing at ordnance targeting military targets, with complete disregard for whether that ordnance and hits civilian areas, or whether that SAM/AAA fire lands back in the city. If the Iraqis were so concerned about civilian casualties, why is their air defense artillery located in the city, instead of surrounding it from the outside?

As for how the story unfolds, whether the reporter made the link, or simply provided the information without explicitly doing so, is just a matter of reporting technique. It has nothing to do with the source of the "evidence."

I'm glad you think it's clutching at straws to point out Iraqi propaganda. The fact is they've had 12 years to clean up ordnance from last time, and anything "interesting" whether it's of technological or propaganda value is likely to have been retained. This takes a lot less effort than the "baby milk plant," but I'm sure you believe the Iraqis were set up so that one and only one mega-factory produced all the baby formula for the city of Baghdad, and two intact plastic bags in the center of a blown out building with it's internal equipment debris was "proof" of the diabolical scheme of the Zionist lackeys to exterminate the babies of Iraq.

	02-04-2003 16:49									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat And if the ****ing Hussein regime had complied with relevant UNSCRs from 12 years ago, sanctions would have been lifted and this war wouldn't even be happening, so it still goes right back to the US.

Yes, the US is responsible for the civilian deaths. The US decided to invade Iraq. No one forced it to invade. The US had other options. The US chose war and it should accept responsibility for its action.

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat why is their air defense artillery located in the city, instead of surrounding it from the outside?

Because placing the defenses outside the city would leave them vulnerable to attack. The only way to maintain the defenses is to hide them in urban areas where buildings can be used as cover.

But again, they're responding to an attack. No attack. No response needed. It's that simple.

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As for how the story unfolds, whether the reporter made the link, or simply provided the information without explicitly doing so, is just a matter of reporting technique. It has nothing to do with the source of the "evidence."

When people are suggesting that Fisk planted the material, or was manipulated by the Iraqi government, then it does make a difference.

If the Iraqis planted the fragment then why not show it immediately to the world? Instead, we get these complicated conspiracy theories about how the sophisticated Iraqi propaganda machine has dreamed up a subtle ploy to deceive the West.

The simple explanation is the most likely explanation.

	02-04-2003 16:51									#49
	Re: Re: Re: Proof that US cruise missile hit Iraqi marketplace Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What? Do we have to express condolences everytime we start a thread that involves death. And Condolences to whom? To the American government because their lies have been explosed? If this was a thread reporting for the first time that civilians were killed in a marketplace then condolences might be in order, but this about finding out who dropped the bomb/missile/whatever.

So you're gloating about casualties to villify the US government without even acting sorry about them?

	02-04-2003 17:04									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior So you're gloating about casualties to villify the US government without even acting sorry about them?

If you're going to troll, you've got to do better than that.

It is quite apparent to any intelligent person that I am not gloating about civilians being killed by American bombs. And who are you to say how I feel about them?

	02-04-2003 18:16									#51
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As I recall, significant casualties are always taken in Arabic cities during celebrations where they bravely fire their Ak's into the air to celebrate various acts of terrorism and such. No one seems to recognize that bullets fired into the air in the middle of a city will come back down within the city.

	02-04-2003 19:54									#52
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It's a war for f**k's sake. The coalition forces are trying (rather harder than the Iraqis) to keep civilian casualties down but zero collateral damage just isn't going to be possible.

The job wasn't finished in '91, the Iraqis messed about with complying with UN resolutions, the US chose to invade, the Iraqis chose to fight. It is a little too late to point fingers when the mess has gone on so long.

As for who to believe, there are now reports on the BBC website of Iraqi units taking up positions in mosques and holy sites, presumably hoping to be attacked so they can show the world how the wicked US/UK forces are defiling Islam. I would be surprised if it wasn't true and it remains to be seen who scores in the propaganda war on the issue.

I also notice that Amnesty International has (for once) been even handed, calling for an inquiry into the shooting of 7 Iraqis at a US checkpoint but also deploring the Iraqi tactic of using troops dressed a civilians.

Wars aren't nice. Real life hurts - unlike the computer games some people, including a few Pentagon planners, confuse with real life.

	02-04-2003 22:00									#53
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quote: When people are suggesting that Fisk planted the material, or was manipulated by the Iraqi government, then it does make a difference. If the Iraqis planted the fragment then why not show it immediately to the world?

People don't trust the Iraqis; the propaganda value of this "find" goes up immensely if a useful fool like Fisk is the one who uncovers it...

	02-04-2003 23:11									#54
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Wow, Tinkai is really Peter Arnett!

Who would have guessed!

	03-04-2003 06:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV It's a war for f**k's sake. The coalition forces are trying (rather harder than the Iraqis) to keep civilian casualties down but zero collateral damage just isn't going to be possible.

No sh!t its a war. So lets cut the bull and call it like it is.

The Americans started the war and are killing civilians. If they haven't got the stomach to accept the responsibilities for their actions then they should stay at home.

I don't mind if the Americans said they're doing everything they can to reduce civilian casaulties. That's true to a large degree. The Americans have proven that they are trying to minimalise civilian deaths. But the Americans are still killing civilians.

What bugs me are the Americans who try to avoid responsibility by blaming the Iraqis: "It's the Iraqis fault for not surrendering, it's the Iraqis fault for trying to defend themselves, it's an Iraqi conspiracy designed to show the US is killing civilians." What a bunch of bull.

So spare me the lies that the US didn't start this war. Spare me the crap the Iraqis are to blame for these civilian deaths.

	03-04-2003 08:29									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai If you're going to troll, you've got to do better than that. It is quite apparent to any intelligent person that I am not gloating about civilians being killed by American bombs. And who are you to say how I feel about them?

You used sarcasm and a wink smiley when people died. Then you got angry when I suggested that you act the slightest bit sorry about it. That suggests to me another motive for starting the thread, which is obviously to blame the US government. When you are not sorry for casualties, but use them to villify American soldiers, you clearly are gloating about them.

Big to you.

	03-04-2003 08:41									#57
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As far as I am concerned, people who shoot bullets, in any situation, are responsible for the damage done by those bullets. If the Iraqis shoot AA, and it hits their own people consistently, it is their fault and not anybody else's. Just as we are responsible for our bombs that hit civilians, they are responsible for their bullets that do so. It's a no-brainer. The fact that they are the defenders hardly sheds them of any responsibility.

	03-04-2003 11:47									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior You used sarcasm and a wink smiley when people died. Then you got angry when I suggested that you act the slightest bit sorry about it. That suggests to me another motive for starting the thread, which is obviously to blame the US government. When you are not sorry for casualties, but use them to villify American soldiers, you clearly are gloating about them.

The only irrational and angry person here is you.

The wink came after the line about the truth being out there. That's related to the fact that a newspaper reader was able to use the Internet to link a serial number with an American weapons producer.

Spare me the "if you criticise the government you're attacking the troops" line.

Yes, this thread is about the US government and how it tried to lie/spin what happened.

	03-04-2003 11:56									#59
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There are other "truths" out there. Like the damage that would have been done if it truely had been a strike by American forces... the damage isn't consistent with the supposed facts you supply.

Just using more logic than you

	03-04-2003 12:46									#60
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I just don't get it. I can not understand why people think whose missile was is that important.
does anyone think that Americans bombed the market on purpose ? Does anyone think that without a war that market would have been bombed att all?

If the answer to both question is "no"....the bombing goes directly to "collateral damage"...and therefore to "cons" of this war.
The discussion is if the "pros" outweight the "cons"...