01-04-2003 16:31									#1
	Proof that US cruise missile hit Iraqi marketplace Put an end to popups!

The US government has tried to suggest that the bombing of an Iraqi market, which killed more than 60 civillians, was caused by an Iraqi missile, not an American missile.

The Guardian has a story that provides proof that it was an American missile. According to the story:

"A metal fragment found at the scene by British journalist Robert Fisk carried various markings, including "MFR 96214 09". This, our reader pointed out in an email, is a manufacturer's identification number known as a "cage code".

Cage codes can be looked up on the internet (www.gidm.dlis.dla.mil), and keying in the number 96214 traces the fragment back to a plant in McKinney, Texas, owned by the Raytheon Company.

Raytheon, whose headquarters are in Lexington, Massachusetts, aspires "to be the most admired defence and aerospace systems supplier through world-class people and technology", according to its website (www.raytheon.com). It makes a vast array of military equipment, including the AGM-129 cruise missile which is launched from B-52 bombers."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dail...,927233,00.html

The truth is out there.

	01-04-2003 16:34									#2
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what a terrible accident.

	01-04-2003 16:42									#3
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quote: Proof that US cruise missile hit Iraqi marketplace

It's very surprising.
I thought it was Martians who launched it.








"See, we love - we love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They hate things; we love things. They act out of hatred; we don't seek revenge, we seek justice out of love."
~ George W. Bush
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-Oklahoma City, Aug. 29, 2002

	01-04-2003 16:47									#4
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quote: sig line "See, we love - we love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They hate things; we love things. They act out of hatred; we don't seek revenge, we seek justice out of love." ~ George W. Bush Lover -Oklahoma City, Aug. 29, 2002

Americans must really love Iraqi merchants.

	01-04-2003 16:57									#5
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Proof of a US missile - probably.

Cruise - maybe.

Raytheon also make the radar homing missiles fired at Iraqi SAM sites. That would fit with the relatively small size of the crater - cruise missiles usually make a bigger hole in whatever they hit.

Rather that a stray cruise it could have been a missile fired at a SAM site located within a few kilometers. No more excusable but perhaps more understandable.

	01-04-2003 17:00									#6
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quote: The Guardian

when i see a cnn report, i'll believe!

	01-04-2003 17:13									#7
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Good point.




"I know what I believe. I will continue to articulate what I believe and what I believe, I believe, what I believe is right."
~ George W. Bush
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	01-04-2003 18:24									#8
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So, how do we know that the Iraqi security forces didn't plant a fragment of a weapon used on another site?

Journalists, particularly Western Journalists have severe limitations on when and where they can go. Iraqi's had all the time in the world to prep the site.

	01-04-2003 20:12									#9
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Must be it. The Iraqis blew up their own people and blamed the US. Then again, US could have blown up its own people too.

	01-04-2003 20:18									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Then again, US could have blown up its own people too.

	01-04-2003 20:20									#11
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When I see a CNN report denying it, I will start believing.

Well, I guess nobody will tell us what really happened. So everything else is just picking sides... with no real proof.

What we do know is that hundreds of missiles and bombs have fallen on Baghdad, and the people on that market didnt die of old age. Also, bombs tend to fall on the wrong place from time to time. Also, Saddam is a known lunatic and could have blown them up himself.

There is probably hundreds of truths out there. Which ones are the most credible ones... you decide!

	01-04-2003 20:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Must be it. The Iraqis blew up their own people and blamed the US.

Good point. The Iraqis have been firing dozens of SA-2s, SA-3s and SA-6s into the air in ballistic mode, where they set the proximity fuzes to detonate on contact, and fire without the benefit of radar (if they used radar seeking then they'd denonate if they missed, however they are unable to even pulse the radar even for a moment, to lock on to anything.)

Unsuprisingly, gravity works just the same in Baghdad, as anywhere else on earth, and the missiles run out of fuel and fall to earth. These are unguided and indiscriminate weapons that the Iraqis are bombarding their own city with, causing damage such as is seen in this market.

	01-04-2003 20:50									#13
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Actually I just read that recently the head of Iraqi AA forces was fired because most of the missiles just fell down onto Baghdad.


And in anycase, a journalists who comes to the site, 4 days after the event, and finds a piece of scrap metal that the Iraqis have conviniently "forgotten to pickup" ....

give me a break.

	01-04-2003 20:53									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Actually I just read that recently the head of Iraqi AA forces was fired because most of the missiles just fell down onto Baghdad.

Not quite. He was apparently fired because he'd failed to down any coalition aircraft. Saddam et al aren't concerned about their population comparitively to a propaganda victory.

	01-04-2003 20:58									#15
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Even a 500 lb bomb makes a bigger creater than that in the market. Theres little chance it's from a cruise missile.

	01-04-2003 21:17									#16
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This is what happens when you use GPS jammers...

This sort of thing happens. It happened in 1991 too. Get over it.

	01-04-2003 21:18									#17
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Maybe THIS one was shot down and crashed in the market.

	01-04-2003 21:27									#18
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Actually, the GPS jammers haven't been effective against aerial targets, since their signal generation capability is too weak to effect targets at any range: they are hand held units... and you'd need more than 3 of them to actually work simultaneously, to have any effect.

Their main use is misleading close by infantry units, especially misguiding their artillery spotting.

Also TLAMs now have both in-flight and terminal INS (inertial navigation systems) and improved DSMAC IIA (Digital Scene Matching Area Correlation) which can still aim in the event of GPS guidance failure, like GPS jamming efforts.

	01-04-2003 21:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Maybe THIS one was shot down and crashed in the market.

Whatever hit the market, denonated. If it was a BGM-109 it wouldn't have left any of the outdoor market standing, or too much of the houses that were 15 yards away from the impact.

	01-04-2003 21:40									#20
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A lot of damage in Baghdad and Basra in the last war was from Iraqi 85mm and 100mm AAA.

As Siro pointed out, the fact that a piece of metal with a Raytheon ID on it was conveniently found there days later means less than nothing.

Over the last 12 years, the Iraqis have no doubt amassed quite a collection of pieces of US ordnance.

	01-04-2003 21:42									#21
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Tim Blair thinks it's a HARM.

It's possible there was a radar track parked in the market which the missile hit. That would explain the lack of crater etc. The fragment could be from somewhere else. I don't trust Robert Fisk too much.

	01-04-2003 21:49									#22
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The most numerous HARMs in the theatre have relatively small warheads... 146 lbs blast/fragment. They are designed mostly to shread the radar antenna's and delicate electronics, rather than the typically more extensive blast effects of anti-surface weapons.

Could this be a HARM strike? maybe. I'd have expected to see more "swiss cheese damage" though.

	01-04-2003 21:53									#23
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I am reminded of the supposed baby milk factory hit during GWI. Whether or not it was a baby milk factory, the sign planted in front of the building was an obvious fake hastily erected for the media.

	01-04-2003 22:27									#24
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Other successful cruise missile strikes have caused only a small amount of damage. A missile striking solid tarmac is unlikely to leave much of a crater.

	01-04-2003 22:45									#25
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A small amount of externally visible damage.

The TLAM has a 1000 lb warhead, which is designed to detonate after the warhead/missile combo has penetrated the target to some extent.

If it hit a solid surface, like the ground or pavement, it would leave a rather large crater, since a major portion of the blast energy would be directed into the ground.

If you had heavily reinforced concrete, with lots of rebar, it wouldn't do as much damage, but in a typical road surface, there'd be a lot of direct blast damage and quite a bit of secondary damage from ejecta striking other objects weakened by the blast.

	01-04-2003 23:27									#26
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Ok, but what if it didn't strike solid tarmac? What if it hit a crowded marketplace, i.e stalls, vehicles, people that happened to be on tarmac?

More telling is that the 'coalition' claimed that Iraq had placed missile launchers in the market area immediately after the first market bombing. They have since changed their story.

	01-04-2003 23:50									#27
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I find it extremely hard to believe that a western journalist would find evidence of a US attack that had been "overlooked" by the Iraqi's for 4 days. Far from this being "proof" of a US attack, I would submit that it is pretty good cicumstantial evidence that the Iraqi's are trying to cover up their own error.

	01-04-2003 23:53									#28
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The BGM-109 uses a FMU-157/B Hard Target Smart Fuze.

It can diferentiate between hard and soft target layers, and wouldn't confuse a market stall with luggage or even a truck bed, with a thick concrete surface, given a velocity of 550mph and a weight of more than 3 tons.

As for the missile launchers... the Iraqis move their equipment around, to avoid its destruction. They may or may not have done so in this case.

	02-04-2003 03:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov Actually I just read that recently the head of Iraqi AA forces was fired because most of the missiles just fell down onto Baghdad. And in anycase, a journalists who comes to the site, 4 days after the event, and finds a piece of scrap metal that the Iraqis have conviniently "forgotten to pickup" ....

Iraqui military were observed and reported days ago to have been sanitizen the market place of all debris of the missle that landed there. I and sure they have also had time to collect and use fragments of USA missles that have struck elsewhere.

	02-04-2003 04:55									#30
	Re: Proof that US cruise missile hit Iraqi marketplace Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The US government has tried to suggest that the bombing of an Iraqi market, which killed more than 60 civillians, was caused by an Iraqi missile, not an American missile. The Guardian has a story that provides proof that it was an American missile. According to the story: "A metal fragment found at the scene by British journalist Robert Fisk carried various markings, including "MFR 96214 09". This, our reader pointed out in an email, is a manufacturer's identification number known as a "cage code". Cage codes can be looked up on the internet (www.gidm.dlis.dla.mil), and keying in the number 96214 traces the fragment back to a plant in McKinney, Texas, owned by the Raytheon Company. Raytheon, whose headquarters are in Lexington, Massachusetts, aspires "to be the most admired defence and aerospace systems supplier through world-class people and technology", according to its website (www.raytheon.com). It makes a vast array of military equipment, including the AGM-129 cruise missile which is launched from B-52 bombers." http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/dail...,927233,00.html The truth is out there.

I don't think a wink smiley is appropriate. If you expressed condolences, it would have been ok, but you didn't.

This is sad. We're supposed to be able to keep better control of our weapons.