03-04-2003 13:20									#61
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Okay tingkai, since you live in a world of fantasy anyway, let's do a little projecting.

The iraqi gov't kills a lot of civilians.
There is going to be some collateral damage in a war, it's unavoidable.

Let's go all out and say that 1000 iraqi civilians die in this war. I would be willing to bet my ass that that is less than Saddam's regime has killed, mamed or brutalized in the last 10 years.

Why are you against this war, when the iraqi people rejoice at their liberation?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...ting/index.html

	03-04-2003 13:41									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Let's go all out and say that 1000 iraqi civilians die in this war. I would be willing to bet my ass that that is less than Saddam's regime has killed, mamed or brutalized in the last 10 years.

Okay Kaak, let's try to bring you out of your fantasyworld.

How many civilians has the American government killed in the past 10 years?

	04-04-2003 03:00									#63
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a lot less than would have died otherwise

	04-04-2003 04:30									#64
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quote: Why are you against this war, when the iraqi people rejoice at their liberation?

I can't really understand how somebody cna believe CNN.
I suggest you watching ''Bowling for Columbine'' is a great movie and in one part it tells some of the things USA has done in the world.(installing dictatorships, derrocating governments). I'm not anti-american people and neither support Saddam as he is a terrible dictator but i have seen my country destroyed by dictators installed by the US and it isn't anything nice. The news seen in USA are very different of the news that are seen in the rest of the world because the US government manipulates the media (in fact, in a tv program here in argentina (Dia D) was shown an investigation that told how all members of Bush's family (his grandpa, his father and George W. himself) have accions in Exxon company and other oil companies. Also was shown that Osama Bin Laden had actions in another company where Bush also had actions (sorry but i REALLY don't remember the company's name) and finally was shown that a member of US government (i think it was Donald Rumsfeld) is the owner of CNN. Here (in argentina,that by the way has a very Pro-US government) we can see iraqui people that doesn't support the war, because they realise USA isn't going to ''liberate'' them.
I suggest you try to watch foreign tv channels from the internet or from anywhere else and not trust only CNN.

Please don't get mad with me and start calling me commie or other nicknames. This is just my opinion and you can agree or disagree with it.

	04-04-2003 04:32									#65
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double post. Sorry

	04-04-2003 05:38									#66
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quote: Originally posted by South killer and finally was shown that a member of US government (i think it was Donald Rumsfeld) is the owner of CNN.

That, right there, invalidates everything else you said.

	04-04-2003 05:49									#67
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quote: Originally posted by South killer and finally was shown that a member of US government (i think it was Donald Rumsfeld) is the owner of CNN.

I think you need to start viewing some more reliable sources as well

	04-04-2003 06:13									#68
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This is a thread? Wow.

	04-04-2003 10:03									#69
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hmm... so somehow all US news is the truth and all the others are lies....

that's the same thing that was tought to the ruskies remember?

	04-04-2003 10:28									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Okay tingkai, since you live in a world of fantasy anyway, let's do a little projecting. The iraqi gov't kills a lot of civilians. There is going to be some collateral damage in a war, it's unavoidable. Let's go all out and say that 1000 iraqi civilians die in this war. I would be willing to bet my ass that that is less than Saddam's regime has killed, mamed or brutalized in the last 10 years. Why are you against this war, when the iraqi people rejoice at their liberation? http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...ting/index.html

Everyone who consider CNN as reliable source is living in fantasy world.
Tell me Kaak, wasn't it CNN who said that Um-Quassar was captured at least five times? Who said that Basrah has fallen (at first day of war)? Who said that 51st Iraqi division surrendered, while it wasn't? Who said that Saddam was killed during first bombardment? Who said that there is popular uprising in Basrah? And the same bullsh!t.

Just read the last paragraph of this article again:

"EDITOR'S NOTE: This report was written in accordance with Pentagon..."



------
"I am a person who recognizes the fallacy of humans...,"
George W. Bush September 20, 2000

	04-04-2003 10:36									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Why are you against this war, when the iraqi people rejoice at their liberation?

I didn't see any Iraqi people rejoicing on TV. Then again, I don't watch CNN.

	04-04-2003 11:40									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen hmm... so somehow all US news is the truth and all the others are lies.... that's the same thing that was tought to the ruskies remember?

US news is mostly lies. The others may be a little more so, or less so, depending on their agenda.

	04-04-2003 12:16									#73
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat US news is mostly lies. The others may be a little more so, or less so, depending on their agenda.

yet so many of people spit out the same arguments in these threads...

every piece of mass media is biased. That's a fact. Yet apparently people (mostly right-wing US) do not even bother to read about "the other side"'s arguments. Considering the wealth of information available in the internet, no one has an excuse of not being well informed. Both sides may be bull but the truth is usually somewhere in between those very lies. You won't find it if you only look one way though.

I've been bashed a lot in these type of threads for my opinions. I don't mind, I love to piss people off arguing politics. What surprises me is that those same people usually DEMAND that I put written proof of my statements which I then do. Then they blast it for being "biased". Yet those same people never even bother to show their own biased proof about the crap they're saying which is really not a way to win an argument...

	04-04-2003 12:45									#74
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I remember the same thing happening in Sarajevo. The marketplace got shelled and a lot of people were killed. In that case, CNN didnt have a doubt about who was to blame.

Anyway, its a matter of how likely a certain scenario is. The fact that the US military might have missed a target is easily dismissed while the fact that the Iraqis blew their own people up is just as easily embraced.

I mean.. who's to say the CIA didnt do 9/11 on their own to be able to go on a crusade against "the axis of evil" and increase their funding? Unlikely... damn sure. So is blowing up your own folks...

	04-04-2003 12:52									#75
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Faking the presence of 19 Arabs and hijacking four airliners and causing yourself billions of dollars in damage is a tad more far fetched than SAM or AAA fire returning to a civilian area.

The biggest argument against US ordnance being responsible for the marketplace blast is the relative lack of damage - it's not a matter of our stuff doesn't miss, it's a matter of our stuff has 1000 (TLAM) to 1800 (JDAM) pounds of high-yield explosive.

The photos and film shown just don't look like what's typical from large ordnance impact.

	04-04-2003 17:11									#76
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The most humorous news to read was from the Iraqis and Iranians during that war.

Each sides communiques would read (almost every day)

"Allah the merciful and compasssionate.

Today we have killed 500 (Iraians or Iraqis) in the fighting to liberate Basra (or somewhere). 2 (or 3 ) of our soldiers were martyred."

Both the Iraqis and Irnians always made the most outrageous claims of victory (just as theIraqis do now).

While western press certainly spins some reports, they're a shadow compared to the fantasies that come out from other countries (state run) news services.

	04-04-2003 18:37									#77
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it baffles me that they can claim that coalition forces hold no part of iraq, expecting to be taken seriously on 3-2 and then on 3-4 "destroy them on the walls" of baghdad

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast...ment/index.html

	04-04-2003 20:14									#78
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It is true that ALL media sources are biased. Each will "spin" the news in order to fulfill various purposes and to play to the audience that they feel is theirs. Of this there can be no doubt. Internet sites have been sited in this thread as more reliable, but I would contend that the opportunity for bias is just as strong there as in the "regular" media.

In order to reach a valid conclusion, it is each persons responsibility to gather facts (such as Tingkai and MTG have presented) and then apply logic and common sense to them (As Ming has done).

Once these processes are combined, no reasonable person could support the fact that it was a US missle that hit the marketplace. The fact that the discussion continues would support the fact that there is no difinitive proof that it was not US ordinance.

However, the title of this thread is that there was "proof". Obviously there is not.

Tingkai: To continue your argument on your original supposition has no merit.

	04-04-2003 21:28									#79
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Edit. Try and fix link here.

Ahhh, damn.

http://www.twerked.com/%7Esplice/cupholder

Last edited by SlowwHand on 04-04-2003 at 22:24

	04-04-2003 22:07									#80
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand The True Story

"You have chosen poorly

The page you requested does not exist. Instead, you get to see the squirrel of doom. You have 7 days to live."

	04-04-2003 22:56									#81
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Just click. I'm having a gray/blond day.

	04-04-2003 23:20									#82
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 However, the title of this thread is that there was "proof". Obviously there is not.

Is there "proof" that I didn't break into your house last night without you noticing and left without taking a thing?

Until a true investigation is done we'll never know, however, I don't trust the US to do it fairly any more than I trust Iraq so I guess we'll never know

	05-04-2003 00:11									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Is there "proof" that I didn't break into your house last night without you noticing and left without taking a thing? Until a true investigation is done we'll never know, however, I don't trust the US to do it fairly any more than I trust Iraq so I guess we'll never know

Interesting approach. However, "proof" is based on proving a positive, not a negative.

Tingkai has provided us with positive evidence of something substanstial...identifiable bomb fragments. This would be part of "proof" it it corelated with other available evidence. MTG has has stated that the impact craters are insufficient for the type of ordinance that was identified.

These two facts, when taken together, at the very least cast doubt on the supposition that it was US ordinance that caused the damage.

Further...If the identified ordinance could not possibly have been the ordinace used to cause the damage, then this would seem to indicate at least some subterfuge on the Iraqi part.