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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Osweld
Excuse me, you seem to be confused. It is you and Drake that are acting as the 'language police' and dictating to us what words mean, what we are justified in thinking, and what we have a right to interpret things as. |
Hardly, the language police are the linguistic puritans on this thread who seem to think they have the right to tell teenagers that they don't know what they mean when they'r talking.
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If the language police are right, we wouldn't have the word in the first place because we'd be siting around waiting for words to magicaly form and develop, without giving them any meaning on our own. |
I find this comment opaque.
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Thanks, another lesson on interpretation! This quote can be interpreted either as the meaning you intend or, to people who share a differeing opinion and view on the subject, as saying that we wouldn't be having this argument had people not turned a reference to sexuality and identity into a slur. |
Groan.... Words are subject to interpretation, but there are shared norms of correctness within speech communities, without which language would be impossible.
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I can see what you intend to say in this case because of your previous comments, but when I read it I see the complete opposite of what I know you're trying to say. |
Again - I find this comment opaque.
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There are two uses for the word. One is a reference to sexuality, lifestyle, and personal identity. The other is a slur. |
Unfortunately, there are now more than two.
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I am having a hard time sifering out your intentions in this one, though. I think what you are asking is if it is alright for someone to be offended by the term "train driver", and yes, it absolutely is. Infact, I know for a fact that certain people would be offeneded at this because train driving is menial and low-wage job. A pompous aristocrat would no doubt look down apon train drivers for that reason and associate it with negative meanings. Welcome to the world of language! |
No - my intention was that people who think "train driver" means "sh*head" are mistaken about the meaning of the term, as are the teen-persecutors in this thread.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Groan.... Words are subject to interpretation, but there are shared norms of correctness within speech communities, without which language would be impossible.
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Yes, you are right, there are shared norms. The comon shared norm lately is that "gay''s old meaning, of happy and frivolous is no longer applicable. It now reffers to a specific sexual orientation, and as an extension of that, anyting to be construed as part of such an identity.
Please explain how then, this new meaning of gay could be associated with a negative connotation unless you seek to denote something negative about the sexual oreintation. For example, why was Liberace's method of dress and behavior to be mocked? Was it simply a fashion judgement? Or a musical one? or perhaps his actions ebign seen as effeminate, this coming form a male, were to be seen as inherently outlandish (interesting use of the notion of "out", as in not part of the group..) and thus negative?
You claim not to know how this word came about, fine. You are though a professor of Philosophy. weave for us a possible entimology, given the current usage of gay ("thats gay is a relatively new usage), in which the use of the word gay is not meant in any way to be derogative either towwards the sexuality in general, or in ways of showing it, like, lets say, being "flamming". Oh, while you are at it, also explain to us peons why being "flamming" is wrong.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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quote:
Don't straight people use the term "gay" for "homosexual" where you live? |
mindseye:
Look at my posts, I use the two interchangeably.
The only reason for this is that gay people use the term themselves.
If you were to use a different word, I would use that word as well.
Boris:
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One of the reasons "fag" grew as a slur was because "gay" was starting to lose it's steam as one, since being "gay" wasn't so bad anymore.
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So why are you so offended by this use of gay if gay has lost it's steam as an insult?
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Just proof that even in the face of being shown something you say is offensive, you'll still blithely go on using it because, hey, you just don't care. How nice.
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Is it offensive to gay people if straight people use the word amongst themselves?
Sava!
At last, we see Mr. Simmons arrive! 
Merci beaucoup.
Gepap
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Now, maybe is just my spidersense kicking in, but I hardly doubt that the first itme someone started saying "thats gay", it was taken as a sign of approval.
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Your dialogue illustrates the point I was trying to make earlier. Words are flexible. What is to stop people from redefining the insult to an affirmation?
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
I find the "proof" argument absurd. Do you have any proof that it is NOT OFFENSIVE? |
That's not what he's talking about. He means there are alternative hypotheses regarding the genesis of this use of the term and that to argue that it is intentionally offensive is to assume without evidence that one of the hypotheses is correct.
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if not, then why are you against removing the usage if some find it offensiv,a s some clearly do? |
Because mere offence is no grounds for censorship. If it were then we would be censoring things when people had made mistakes about them. People who don't understand the correct meaning of the word "niggardly" may believe it is a racist term and be offended by it. But they have no right to prohibit others from using it, because they are wrong about its meaning. That's the main reason we've been giving.
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Tht makes no sense to me. "Ho, some people find it offensive, but even if we have qords that can express the very same idea without giving insult to anyone, lets use it, even though I can;t show you that it is not meant as an affront to being homosexual." This to me is what you are saying..I can't prove to you it isn;t mean to slander gays (you can;t, you constantly ask for any explination of how this came about), obviosuly (as we see form this thread) people do find it offensive, but all you can say is"well, so what, suck it up...". Well, that to me is the least defensible agrument of all. |
No. What I've been asking is "do people have good grounds to find it offensive" or in other words, "in finding it offensive are people making a mistake of fact." I think they are.
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We may not know where it comes from, but language develops in patters, patterns that can be reasoned out. For example, before gay, you say there was lame. OK, why lame? Why that word and not, lets say, tall? Both are just adjectives to explain some physical condition. Isn;t one as good as the next? And yet..we use the one that reffers to a physical problem, a defect and not the one that is generally neutral, to describe soemthing negatively. |
Some of this has been dealt with already.
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And lest explore Agathon's notion, that it refers to "flamming gays". Please explain to me why this is not still offensive? Why is attacking and individual for their manner of dress and act? Did Liberace hurt anyone? Why was his behavior to be mocked? |
I can't believe you are asking this as a serious question. I think most people would say that Liberace's style of dress and behaviour was to be mocked. Even Liberace himself were he still with us - he was being deliberately outlandish and silly to get a reaction. When we laugh at his style of dress we are laughing with him and not at him. If people in the street wore some of Liberace's old clothes, do you not think they would look ridiculous? If gay people thought it was so contemptuous, why do famous gay people like Ian McKellen deliberately act up this way to get people to laugh? (I nearly died laughing when he was on Conan O'Brien last year).
In any case I think it would be pretty hard to use this stereotype to offend someone because it has been discredited. Our stereotypical gay person these days is basically a normal person who happens to be gay, like Ellen DeGeneres.
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Even if ,as you say Agathon is stating, it reffers to the "flammers", inherent in the critism is an attack against males acting in some method seen as female, and being effeminite is one of the most basic attacks against homosexuals. |
The "flaming" stereotype is mocked by gays and non-gays alike because it isn't true. And it is generally not mocked in a hurtful manner but in the way that people respond to the outlandish British TV host Julian Clary - we laugh with him, because the "flaming" stereotype is a ridiculous character which is charmingly funny. After all somebody that looks like a cross between a circus clown and a ballerina looks pretty funny - and he knows it - that's why he dresses that way.
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Anyway, so if Agathon and Drake declared that people have no right to be offended by the word "train driver" because they somehow think it means "sh*thead" we would be so wrong and be deemed fools by the linguistic elect?
Give me a break and respond to the actual argument. |
I find this answer absurd. "Somehow we think gay is ebing used to denote something negative?". Please Agathon, i beg you, post some place in which someone said "that's so gay!" when aproving of something. |
The point here is one about mistaking the meanings of expressions - that's the point. Please don't try and stretch the example.
Here's an example - when a gay friend had "Stroppy B*tch" painted in large letters on the side of his motorcycle, I said to him, "That is sooo gay." He laughed and agreed.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Yes, you are right, there are shared norms. The comon shared norm lately is that "gay''s old meaning, of happy and frivolous is no longer applicable. It now reffers to a specific sexual orientation, and as an extension of that, anyting to be construed as part of such an identity. |
It also has a new shared norm amongst teens which means "lame".
quote:
Please explain how then, this new meaning of gay could be associated with a negative connotation unless you seek to denote something negative about the sexual oreintation. For example, why was Liberace's method of dress and behavior to be mocked? Was it simply a fashion judgement? Or a musical one? or perhaps his actions ebign seen as effeminate, this coming form a male, were to be seen as inherently outlandish (interesting use of the notion of "out", as in not part of the group..) and thus negative? |
Anyone here who finds Liberace's style of dress and deportment to be anything other than ridiculous and outlandish, please raise your hand? 
quote:
You claim not to know how this word came about, fine. You are though a professor of Philosophy. weave for us a possible entimology, given the current usage of gay ("thats gay is a relatively new usage), in which the use of the word gay is not meant in any way to be derogative either towwards the sexuality in general, or in ways of showing it, like, lets say, being "flamming". Oh, while you are at it, also explain to us peons why being "flamming" is wrong. |
Oh no.... I did this about five pages ago. I'm not doing it again.
Look, I'm not saying this to be argumentative but you seem to be accusing me of failing to address points that I've already addressed in some detail in previous posts. I'd be quite happy to give up and agree with you if you can prove me wrong, but so far I haven't seen anything on this thread to make me change my mind.
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General Ludd
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Minion of the Dominion
Aug 2001
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Hardly, the language police are the linguistic puritans on this thread who seem to think they have the right to tell teenagers that they don't know what they mean when they'r talking. |
You're still missing it, I'm afraid. I am not telling teenagers what they mean. I am telling them what it means to me. They do not have to think it is offensive for it be so. It is, as I have said before, like telling your grandmother to **** off. You may not find that language offensive, but chances are your grandmother thinks it's the epitome if vulgarity. I know mine does, which is why I would never say it to her unless I intended to really offend her.
Interpretation!
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Groan.... Words are subject to interpretation, but there are shared norms of correctness within speech communities, without which language would be impossible. |
Yes, there are common interpretations - they are neccisary for any sort of language beyond a handful of people - but they are always subject to change acording to how the listener associates the word with different meanings and experiences. Like I have said before, language is organic and this is how it evolves.
Language is a compromise, the speaker tries to convey his feelings, and the listener interprets them, but ultimately the meaning of the word is defined by the listener. You do not, can not, tell people how to interpret words. You can only try to get them to see it the same way as you do - that is what language is all about.
Someone who uses 'gay' as a slur when he does not intend to offend gays is obviously failing this concept greatly.
quote:
No - my intention was that people who think "train driver" means "sh*head" are mistaken about the meaning of the term, as are the teen-persecutors in this thread. |
Sorry, but I did understand you. I even replied to you. And, for that matter, I even explained to you why someone would have a right to be offended by the word "train driver" and how the meaning of words can change from listener to listener. If you want to keep playing, you're going to have to pay attention!
 Unless you strictly meant asociating it with the word **** head - in which case, it wasn't an argument worth responding to.
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Agathon
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Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
They don't. Granted, I didn't know all that many openly gay people in high school or earlier, but they usually didn't use "gay" as a synonym for "lame." |
Where you come from "they" don't. Where Drake comes from and where I come from "they" do.
Six of one.....
And as for this:
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You're still missing it, I'm afraid. I am not telling teenagers what they mean. I am telling them what it means to me. |
I understand perfectly, I disagree. It is their word, not yours. If me and my friends coin a word and you think it means something to you, then that's your problem and not ours.
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They do not have to think it is offensive for it be so. It is, as I have said before, like telling your grandmother to **** off. You may not find that language offensive, but chances are your grandmother thinks it's the epitome if vulgarity. I know mine does, which is why I would never say it to her unless I intended to really offend her. |
Are you going to stop me from swearing in the company of my friends now?
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Yes, there are common interpretations - they are neccisary for any sort of language beyond a handful of people - but they are always subject to change acording to how the listener associates the word with different meanings and experiences. Like I have said before, language is organic and this is how it evolves. |
Yes but the notion of a norm implies correctness. Every interpretation is not correct. The criterion of correctness is what the speech community normally uses. If I start using "dog" instead of "cat" then I'm making a mistake. If I interpret "dog" to mean "cat" I'm making a mistake.
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Language is a compromise, the speaker tries to convey his feelings, and the listener interprets them, but ultimately the meaning of the word is defined by the listener. |
That is a totally ridiculous view - if it were true then there wouldn't be much sense in saying that people understood each other, because the speaker wouldn't be able to know the meaning of his own utterance.
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You do not, can not, tell people how to interpret words. |
Yes you can. Teachers do it all the time. So do parents when they teach their children to speak.
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You can only try to get them to see it the same way as you do - that is what language is all about. |
No - it's about communicating thoughts to others. When I tell my friend that there is a a beer in the fridge I am not trying to get him to see it the same way as I do. I'm reporting a a fact to him.
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Drake Tungsten
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Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:27
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quote:
I love this. Still going and people still want to say that it's derogatory to homosexuals by ignoring what the word in this context means. It's wonderful when people metastasize their personal desire to prohibit something, into a fact about the meaning of a word. The fact that you are offended by something is not a sufficient moral reason, on it's own, to justify prohibiting it or punishing people for doing it. This should be obvious to any thinking person.
Unless (1) the term "gay" as used by teenagers like this guy is specifically derogatory to homosexuals - in other words, that's what "gay" means in this context (which it doesn't), or (2) that this usage of the term was coined specifically to get at homosexuals (which no-one has proved) you have no case.
(1). Cannot be made as a case because the meaning of a term is the use it is put to in a speech community. In this case it is equivalent to "lame" - that is what the people who coined it use it to mean - that's what it means. You don't own the meaning - the speech community (in this case teenagers) do - it's their coinage, whatever interpretation you put on it is your business, not theirs. The fact that the same phonemes are used homonymously is irrelevant. If you are going to provide some other criterion of meaning then go ahead - I'd like a good laugh.
(2) There is no conclusive evidence presented by anyone here (including myself) that this use of the term as a mild form of general derogation either did or did not come about because of a contemptuous attitude towards homosexuals or that it was coined to get at gays. Such evidence would require a professional empirical study of the development of the use of the word and no one has presented anything other than hypotheses based on their own peculiar experiences (that's pretty much all we are capable of). In the face of such a lack of evidence the people who argue that they are offended by the term have precisely that as their case - and that's not sufficient reason for publicly sanctioned punishment.
In other words "gay" is innocent until it is proven guilty.
If someone wants to come up with genuine evidence rather than just repeatedly saying "I know it" then that's fine. Otherwise it is just a waste of time.
And you know what? If people make a big fuss about this word, then just like most of the other advice from the bosses, it will make teens want to use it more. |
I take back anything bad I ever said about you, Agathon. Excellent post; it really cut to the heart of the matter. 
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
There's a difference between negative (and we are talking mild negativity here) and negative-associated-with-homosexuals. Teens mean "lame" by "gay" and last I looked "lame" didn't mean "homosexual". |
Ohh lord...
What you seem to wilfully ignore is why use "lame" and "gay" in the first place. Using the definition of lame:
From Websters New World dictionary:
lame: [adj. MElama, akin to Ger. lahm, ON lamilem, to break > Russ lomat' to break] 1. crippled;disabled; esp., having an injured leg or foot that makes one limp 2 stiff and very painful [a lame back] 3 poor, weak,unconvincing, ineffectual, etc. [a lame excuse.
Interestingly enough, look how they handle the slang term: [slang] a person who is conventional, conservative, old-fashioned.
but then comes lame-brain:
[Colloq] a slow-witted or stupid person;dolt;numskull.
I disgaree with how they define the slang meaning of lame, but it is still interesting reading. Why thn use lame? could it be because it denotes something crippled? something for some reasonm abnormal and hence inferior? How is this in any way positive? and if you kep claiming "gay" now just means "lame", are you willing to admit that "lame" was inherently negative?
And what about gay?
adj. [[ ME gai gahi, swift, impetuous, akin to Ger jaeh]]
1 joyous and lively;merry;happy; lighthearted 2 bright, brilliant [gay colors] 3 given to social life and pleasures [a gay life] 4 wanton; licentious [a gay dog]- n a homosexual; esp. a homosexual man .
Comparing the two words which yo state have become synonimous, how is something crippled like somehting happy, merry? Surely you don;t think our teenagres were foolish enough to link those two parts fot eh definition together, now are you? So which oart fo "gay" did modrn teenagers want to associate with the notion of "lame", or crippled and disabled?
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05-04-2003 01:42
). That's part of the previous 14 pages of argument.
Attachment: 
Most of the insults directed at me come from Asher. 
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