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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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I finally finished my large map game, with a landing in 1535 AD, quite a contrast to the results with a medium map.
There was plenty of room for improvement here, and I expect some others playing this map may do a good bit better.
Without huts, large map games are considerably harder, since the AI are harder to reach and delivery payoffs on a large map are scaled down by 4/5. The fact that more cities are allowed before impacting happiness is pretty much nullified by the fact that none of these extra cities are free. They must be bribed away or built using settlers, and doing this takes time and resources away from the main task of landing early. Add on the higher research costs, and hutless large map games begin to present a real challenge and the optimal strategy for playing them is not at all obvious.
At the start, some black clicking told me I was located on a relatively small island, without easy access to any of the large land masses other than two small, neighboring islets (unless continent #1 was very close. I found out much later that it was). So I decided to research Trade first, even giving it more priority than a better form of government. To do well, I believed I needed Marco Polo’s as soon as I could get it built, so I took the chance that one of the AI might have Monarchy or Republic ready for a trade by that time. I was disappointed, since the best they had to offer was Ceremonial Burial. Since it would have been 4 more steps of research to get to Republic, it made sense to go to Monarchy first.
I was also delayed a few times by barb attacks, once near the beginning, when a potential settler had to be converted into a phalanx to protect my SSC. Later on, the barbs swooped in again and captured Viborg, one of my helpers. These were minor setbacks though, compared to the damage caused by some of my mid-game decisions. Off to a bad start already, I was not inspired to play my best, and delayed my SSC growth to size 21 for a long time when I made the mistake of researching Math-Astronomy ahead of Engineering-Sanitation.
The setup was not promising for early landings, as even the nearest AI were at a good distance, and the only way I could find to reach them early on with triremes was by making a detour along the southern ice cap. This effectively doubled the time it took to deliver caravans to the Spanish, Babylonians, and later on, to the Mongols. More resources had to go into building a fleet of triemes to speed up trade, and with so many boats and settlers to support, it made more sense to remain in Monarchy until Republic was needed for celebrations.
Later in the game, the larger scale presented by a large map game made it seem to take forever to set up useful colonies and implement an expeditious system of trade. Once a system of accelerated trade finally got established, delivery payoffs were quite substantial, but this was delayed almost beyond when it became useful. During most of the game, it was quite struggle earning enough to get the SSC and other cities up and running. Near the end, I had much more gold than I needed to do everything I wanted. The trouble is that it just took too long during this game to reach that point where income is no longer a problem. Almost 1000 gold was left over after building a space ship, gold that might have come in very handy earlier in the game.
So to conclude, there’s still a lot for me to learn about how to play well on large maps without huts. Below is the summary. I may not have time to type up and post a detailed log, since it came to well over 10 written pages.
ELG #3, Large Map Game Summary
Monarchy – 1250 bc
Republic – 225 bc
Democracy – 940 ad
Marco Polo’s – 1450 bc
Shakespeare’s – 175 bc
Colossus – 400 bc
Copernicus – 320 ad
Newton’s – 600 ad
Michaelangelo’s – 840 ad
Darwin’s – 1120 ad
Apollo – 1500 ad
Size 8 – 75 bc
Size 12 – 20 ad
Size 21 – 580 ad
Max. size – 28 in 1300 ad
Key civ contact – 800 bc
Trade – 2000 bc
Invention – 580 ad
Railroad – 1060 ad
Automobile – 1260 ad
Nuclear Power – 1400 ad
Computers – 1420 ad
Flight – 1440 ad
Space Flight – 1500 ad
AC arrival – 1535 ad
I’m curious to see how some others fared. Attached is the save on the turn of the launch.
 Attachment: ca_a1520.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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Cliff
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I finally got some time to finish my Power Democracy approach to this early landing game and I was able to beat the best landing dates of comparison game #2 which was my goal. I landed on AC in 955AD.
I will (maybe) post a detailed log later but for now I will just post the summary and the save. After launch I sent out some troops and killed off everyone. A handful of respawned civs with a size 1 city or a settler remain in the game.
Governments
Monarchy 2250BC
Republic 60AD
Democracy 460AD
Communism/Fundamentalism Not used
Wonders
HG 1200BC
MPE 1500BC
Pyramids 225BC
ST Not built
Colossus 125BC
Copernicus Built by Spanish
Isaac's Not built
Leo's 420AD
Magellan's 560AD
Michaelangelo's 80AD
JSB 200AD
Darwin's 700AD
SETI Not built
Apollo 920AD
SSC stats
size 8 200AD
size 12 360AD
size 21 660AD
max. size 22
Techs
Trade 1750BC
Invention 400AD
Railroad 700AD
Automobile 760AD
Nuclear Power 840AD
Computers 860AD
Flight 880AD
Space Flight 900AD
Key civ contact 1500BC
AC arrival 955AD
Attachment: ca_a954.sav
This has been downloaded 9 time(s).
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Cliff,
A nice job fulfilling your goal of a sub 1000 AD landing, and welcome to the club! You also have the distinction of doing this without building Copernicus or Isaac's!
In the large map start for #3, your approach might have been the best one to use. I'll be interested in any changes you make to your strategy if you decide to participate in the next medium map game, which will begin shortly.
La Fayette,
You knocked off another 100 years from your last result without really trying. I detect more energy spent on your new records in the scenarios. Nice job there!
Heerscher,
Not bad for your first game, and I bet you will do a lot better in following games if you decide to continue playing. I hope you enjoyed this style of play enough to try a few more games.
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Heerscher
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Leiden
Mar 2003
time: 06:27
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RJM at Sleepers,
All the city-walls and the huge stacks of defensive units were built after my space-ship was launched. Since it needed 30 years to reach AC, I had a lot of time to built up a military. In most cities factories were built before Space flight (I didn't have much cash, so I figured I could at least speed up space ship parts production by increasing production). So after my launch all of my cities were pretty productive and I killed time during the journey of my spaceship, by fighting big naval wars with the other AI civs, all of them with great results. However, they only sued for peace if I captured a city, or killed a lot of their land units.
Solo,
I will definitly participate in ELG 4! I expect to learn a lot of these games, probably more than I ever learnt in my time before I 'discovered' Apolyton. It's really great to see such a lively and skilled community, still playing with great enthousiam a game that's nearly 8 years old! Never seen that before.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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SG(2),
Another member of the sub 1000 AD club in good standing! Nice job!
As predicted, my large map date is no longer the best. Now it is the worst! I'll be interested in seeing your city layout when your save is posted, plus further details about both games.
Beware, though! I will have another large map start accompanying game #4, and your days as top dog in that department might be numbered!
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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I don't know if I'm going to make the deadline for #3; Saturday may be a wash depending on the weather.
I am nearing 1000BC right now, hurting for money but trying to get trading going. Early game summary:
Trade: 2350BC
Marco Polo: 1900BC
Republic: 1500BC
I tried a new variant of going for Trade first (Bro/Alp/Cur/CoL/Tra) and building Marco Polo as quickly as possible (actually could have been a little earlier by sacrificing a city build, but I needed the fourth). At 1900BC nobody else had Monarchy or Republic, but Lit was available from one civ and CerBur from three. I could have gone for immediate Monarchy, but I promised to try Early Republic and I liked the possibilities of the river system. The techs that were available from the AI were Cer, Hor, Lit, Map, Mas, Mys, PT, Pot, War, Whe, and Wri. I was working on Write at the time, so I took that as well as Map, Lit, Mys, and Cer. This set up a situation where I could select Philosophy as my next tech (I had 70 beakers already in the bag), with a freebie Republic and a next selection of Medicine. I then monkeyed with my beaker production a little bit to get Philosophy at the end of 1500, so I could do an OEDO revolt to Republic. The problem was that I was not ready with Temples yet, so everything else had to stop (except for getting a boat in the water) to build them, and I was pretty much out of gold. A 5th city was built before Republic, which led to some scrambling of Warriors and Elvi as the extra red face hit two existing cities. I am now trying to get the first two caravan deliveries overseas before 1000BC. The next few are going to be reserved for Shakes, and I am trying to decide between the two 4-special sites for the SSC. 55,71 has ocean access and a Whale; 59,69 has the nice river system and a city at each of the three deltas. Decisions, decisions...
EDIT: Oh yes, KeyCiv contact 1900BC (in fact, All Civs contacted, and Vikings were Supreme)
Last edited by Elephant on 25-04-2003 at 23:47
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Zenon,
I think building the Lighthouse made a big difference and found myself wondering why I didn't do this after I had finished my game. So far you've done the best with this difficult map, even after some delay in building up your SSC. Well done!
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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The comparison tables are ready for this game, so I'll post them. Thanks to the eight people posting their results in the medium map game and to 4 others who tried the difficult large map game.
Medium Map Comparison Table
(My apologies to players with names exceeding 5 characters, as only 5 spaces are available in each column of the table.)
The medium map game showed the best results yet, partly because all players are still tinkering with the system, trying to find the best way to play these games. The uncommonly good SSC site and the excellent layout helped produce 4 sub-1000 AD scores, the first ever in these games. All players showed improvement in this game.
 Attachment: mmchart.jpg
This has been downloaded 175 time(s).
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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Large Map Comparison Table
I proved in this game that going for trade before a better form of government was not the best strategy, as my own date was beaten handily by SG(2) and Zenon. Zenon understood the limitations of this map best when deciding to build the Lighthouse wonder, and also showed that SSC growth can be delayed by using caravans for more trade early in the game.
Attachment: lmchart.jpg
This has been downloaded 172 time(s).
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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I am still soldiering on, with ST built in 650BC, beginning WLTCD, got Cst & Eng, researching San. Roughly comparable to your Medium game, Solo, perhaps 3 or 4 turns behind; I went for Trade and Marco Polo first, then Republic; you went for Early Republic, then Trade. I doubt I will be able to finish by next weekend. I always do poorly in mid-late game anyway.
Do you have saves of your Medium game, say 3000, 2500, 2000, 1500, 1000, 500BC, and 1AD? I'd like to compare more closely.
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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My "lunchtime analysis" on the comparisons between your tech path and mine is that the benefits of getting Marco Polo a little earlier do not outweigh the liabilities of delaying my government switch. I took a few extra techs from my first round of Marco Polo trades, which increased the "cost" of finishing Republic (but brought in Philosophy, which set up Medicine nicely), but getting Rep in 1500 lost out on 10 turns of extra trade. I think I will try Early Republic/Early Trade next round.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:27
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SCG,
I was wondering where you were, and too bad about missing the deadline. You should know that I have used the "switch" again to get a supply of Uranium in my SSC, so I have become devoted to using it. I also had an instance of it working on a non-cycle turn, which mystified me a bit. About 10% of the time I try it, I end up liking and keeping the result.
Monk,
Too bad to see you missed out on this one. I hope things are going okay with you.
La Fayette,
When MPE was built my key civ, the Mongols, had been learning Iron Working, a tech I wanted, so I did not want to slow them down by contacting them. It turns out that the Russians, also working on that tech, learned it first in 800 BC. So I traded with them for the tech and made first contact with the key civ right afterwards to give them Iron Working, so as not to waste their accumulated beakers.
Elephant,
I have collected the saves you requested and will attach them below. Going to trade first did not work in the large map game, since there was a big delay getting out of Despotism. I lost 12 to 16 turns of being in a better government to Zenon and SG(2), respectively, which probably cost me the half dozen turns I came in behind at the end. With better MPE luck, this trade first idea might have paid off. On a medium map, where research goes faster, going to trade first may still not be a bad idea, as seems to be the case in your own game.
 Attachment: elg3.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).
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Elephant
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Phila PA
Aug 2002
time: 00:27
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Thanks. I'll take a look and comment later this week.
Best wishes in #4. Looks like the competition is heating up. I am glad that Marco Polo is getting more appreciation: the neglected art of Diplomacy! Wish I could put RL on hold and catch up with you guys...
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21-04-2003 11:28
) I could not made a detailed log. For ELG 4 I hope to make a detailed log, but don't count on it since I generally only have time to play at night 
so I will read the thread about it in the Great Library more carefully for my next game. 
Civ is turning into a spectator sport for me! I hope to eventually finish this one, just not sure when (and if you've been reading my posts in the succession game threads, you know that could be a while 
)
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