29-04-2003 06:55									#91
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Yes, Marco Polo's is quite a bargain!

If we're willing to invest twice as much later in the game to get less than half as much by building Darwin's, MPE seems like an obvious choice now in EL games.

	29-04-2003 20:14									#92
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The beginning of the game is the most crucial phase: every decision has major impact on the later stages. When Railroad rolls around (little pun there) we are usually sitting pretty (if not: RESTART) and have caravans or gold to spare. Darwins is a useful way to try to bridge the Railroad-Corporation gap, but I would say it is not a definite-build. There are far more benefits to MPE than just four or five techs: early maps for deciding/improving on trade routes, instant embassies for intel and KeyCiv gifting (ELCG1 was so weird, running into the Mongols before 3000BC!), and "tech slave" manipulations of AI research. I usually get it built around 1000BC, but I am often "reaping the benefit" well into AD years, for such techs as Chivalry and Railroad. To me it is the first must-build.

	01-05-2003 15:17									#93
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Solo, SG (2),

thank´s for the comments on my large map game. Solo, it seems indeed, that your early tech experiments gave us a nice advance. I have seen that you lost the Greeks to the Barbarians, too, so there was only one direction to go for trade. The trade routes you build up in the end are quite impressive and must have given huge returns.
Building the Lighthouse could have given a better result if I had not - quite unintended - delayed city growth. In fact, it seems I was behind your game, SG (2), until automobile. As usual you beat be on the way to Monarchy (on both maps). BTW, in between my projection for the landing date was 1455 (launched 1440) versus your 1456. May be you should add just a few gallons of fuel?

Cliff,

a very impressive game on the medium map. I am convinced this approach would have won the large map.

Zenon

	01-05-2003 19:21									#94
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Zenon,

If I only could have got those long range trade routes in place a little sooner...

I had more gold than I knew what to do with at the end.

I was also quite impressed by what Cliff managed to do, since many have tried this before (with huts too), and have not managed to do as well on a medium map.

SG(2) has already shown how well many cities work in large map games. If a few try this in ELG #4, I will go the minimal approach so we can see how the two methods compare.

In #4 I'm giving early Monarchy a try, to compare how it works vs. Republic first.

	02-05-2003 03:41									#95
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Dear Friends,

This is painful for me. I have been struggling with poor health for some time but the bottom fell out around the 9th of April. I have been in and, mostly, out of consciousness since and failing vision makes game play too difficult for the forseeable future.

I want to take this opportunity to say goodbye--hopefully, only temporarily--to all my Poly friends. It has been a very great pleasure for me to share thoughts and challenges and time with this extraordinary group. I am pleased that many new folk have taken up the ELG style of play and will miss sharing these experiences with youse guys.

May you all be blessed with many new discoveries and great, heroic deeds with this great and unique game...and, thanks for the memories.

Monk

	02-05-2003 06:59									#96
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Goodbye, Monk
You have shown us so much energy and dedication in dealing with problems that I am convinced you are going to win that fight against poor health very soon.

	02-05-2003 12:29									#97
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quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Goodbye, Monk You have shown us so much energy and dedication in dealing with problems that I am convinced you are going to win that fight against poor health very soon.

Not goodbye but au revoir.

All of us wish you the best and hope you'll be back here soon.

RJM at Sleepers

	02-05-2003 13:18									#98
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Monk - very sorry to learn about your problems. If you can ... stick around Poly ... even if you can't play.

-----------------------

SG(2)

	02-05-2003 15:12									#99
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Monk,

so sorry to hear about this. My best wishes for a soon recovery - and stay around if you can.

Zenon

	02-05-2003 15:24									#100
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Good luck Monk.

	02-05-2003 19:22									#101
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My worst fears have been confirmed by this sad news. It's been a privilege to have associated with a player with so much skill and class. In the meantime let's hope that things change for the better sometime soon and that you'll be able to return. Best of luck, Monk.

	02-05-2003 20:52									#102
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Sad news, Monk. Your speedy ascent of the EL learning curve has been beautiful to watch. Best of luck.

	04-05-2003 04:37									#103
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Au revoir, Bloody Monk. I hope that you will get better soon. I've greatly appreciated your play on our Succession games.

God bless.

	04-05-2003 08:53									#104
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Monk,

I'm very sorry to hear about your condition. I share the feeling that this is a temporary setback for you - and that we'll have the benefit of your insights again, when you're well enough to return.

All the best - and whatever it is, you'll beat it.

	05-05-2003 02:02									#105
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Hang in there, Bloody Monk.

It's with a heavy heart that I read your post. It's been a pleasure and a privilege to share the Poly experience with you.

My thoughts are with you, friend.

	05-05-2003 04:39									#106
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Thanks to everyone for the kind words!!

I hope I will be forgiven for this cross-post rather than thanking each of you separately (leaving a bunch of +1's on the table)
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...030#post1967030

I have long argued for the (circumstances permitting) preference of a celebrating Monarcy over early/immediate Republic, to get tribute and set up infrastructure. I am pleased to see this being demonstrated in ELG4. Circumstances can favor one or the other, I think. (This was offered to nudge things on-topic. )

It has been swell; thanks!!

Monk

	05-05-2003 18:25									#107
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Monk,

You have argued correctly, too, about a celebrating Monarchy! I am starting to believe that for most EL game situations, Monarchy may be better as first government choice than Republic.

The very successful games by you, SG(2), Zenon and others using Monarchy have taught me to re-evaluate my EL stategy as put forth in the guide. What really convinced me was that earlier Trade was possible when using early Monarchy. Another key was how well Monarchy can work when used with Marco Polo's. All you have to do is get 2 or 3 more techs by trade to equal or beat the faster research pace of Republic. One thing I still am debating is whether using Pottery and HG pay off in the long run, since I'm doing pretty well without either so far in my #4 large map game.

	13-05-2003 04:43									#108
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Overview of Games #3

MEDIUM MAP

This game saw the rivers of game #1 meet the lush grassland of game #2 and produced some tasty landing dates with explosive strategies. Solo's 615 arrival on AC is yet another milestone of achievement playing with no huts or starting techs and will I suspect be a record for some time. Not far behind him Zenon's performance was brilliant only using a handful of turns more. Cliff showed everyone that power-play can challenge the previously held beliefs of the "Minimalist Approach". Not content with a mid 10th Century landing he all but conquers the world whilst ignoring the wisdom that Copernicus and Isaac had to offer! A closer inspection of his game revealed that Shakespeare's Theatre was still begging to be built. This approach could be lethal on a large world.

Although just recording a sub-millennium landing I failed to capitalise on the opportunities offered by such rich real estate. Thinking I was ahead of the game reaching Monarchy in 2450 for a timely revolution my concentration wavered. Worse was to follow as Alzheimer's became apparent when I opted to research Seafaring at 1000BC! Shortly afterwards when MPE provided some geography I couldn't really decide on where to direct my trade. A few caravans to the English produced worthwhile bonuses but the proximity of the Spanish, with colony sites on islands en route made eastward trade attractive. Such vacillation was fatal. Luck in the game was neutral to average pretty well matching the play.


LARGE MAP

The start of this game was intriguing. Seldom does a gold mountain occur surrounded by so many green tiles. The gold had to be worked so it seemed appropriate to capitalise on one of the game's foibles. The Palace City was built working the gold but not growing. Settler #2 started some roads … it somehow seems quicker to build a highway across a mountain in the early years … whilst the capital produced another settler. When this arrived the second city was immediately founded and the other settler scuttled away to found city #3. The gold seemed too good to waste!

Unlike the previous games I became involved in AI politics. On two occasions I was offered gold for declaring war on somebody's enemy. I accepted both times so reputation slipped below spotless! One occasion worked very well as the Mongols wouldn't exchange Engineering whilst their great minds worked on KRC. A war chest inflated with Spanish gold permitted the purchase of a purple town and the choice of tech. Hence Sanitation became a reality far quicker. Shortly afterwards peace was made with the Mongols after copious gifts of knowledge.

The key to success relied upon quick trade with the Greeks, which involved a railway link across a different continent. The wayside stations along the line provided useful colonies. This strategy was an option for Zenon and myself, but not for Solo as the Barbs captured Athens in his game. Better play in Zenon's endgame just beat me to the stars! I must work on those final years.

I am putting together some tips for reaching early Monarchy. Like many things it expands and becomes more involved once started. I am also afraid that my only advantage in these tests will evaporate

------------------------

SG(2)

	15-05-2003 19:36									#109
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SG(2),

This was a great synopsis of the two games!

Could I interest you in providing more of them in future games?

	15-05-2003 21:01									#110
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quote: Originally posted by solo Monk, You have argued correctly, too, about a celebrating Monarchy! I am starting to believe that for most EL game situations, Monarchy may be better as first government choice than Republic. The very successful games by you, SG(2), Zenon and others using Monarchy have taught me to re-evaluate my EL stategy as put forth in the guide. What really convinced me was that earlier Trade was possible when using early Monarchy. Another key was how well Monarchy can work when used with Marco Polo's. All you have to do is get 2 or 3 more techs by trade to equal or beat the faster research pace of Republic. One thing I still am debating is whether using Pottery and HG pay off in the long run, since I'm doing pretty well without either so far in my #4 large map game.

Another benefit to early Monarchy is less food eaten by settlers, allowing quicker regrowth of producing cities or more shields. I'm not sure celebrating Monarchy (via Pottery and HG) are worth all those Salt camels; consider Monarchy a temporary diversion on the way to Republic. My first EL games were Monarchy-Trade-Republic; my latest attempt at Early Republic was spoiled by going Early Trade -> Early Republic. I think I want to try ER again, but I'd like to have a look at the nearby terrain and size of continent in #5 before committing. I think there is a terrain factor in making a final decision.

	15-05-2003 22:14									#111
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Elephant,

All good points and I agree. Tribute obtained under Monarchy is another good reason to use it first, but there's a temptation to dally and defer a quick switch to Republic once AI treasuries have been depleted.

I did a little research on tribute. A short test tells me that if I am Supreme, all I need is more units than an AI on the same continent to guarantee tribute. Quality does not seem to matter, so use cheap warriors to build a majority and to enforce early happiness and safety. Later they can be transferred to the SSC and used to help rush caravans and improvements, which can make this process much more efficient.

	16-05-2003 01:08									#112
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There are some "rules of thumb" for tribute amounts: nothing if their treasury is under 50g, 25g if between 50 and 99, 50 if between 100 and 149, etc. If accompanied by a tech gift the attitude usually stays the same, if not it often (but not always) will slip a notch. I usually try to ask every third turn, but have seen others do it every other with only a few more "gripes".

I have often wondered if there was a breaking point for number of units; knowing quality does not matter is also very valuable. Is there not a "trigger" mechanism that you need at least one city on their continent? That was the other thing I was wondering about. "Marco Polo contact only" definitely does not work.

	16-05-2003 01:38									#113
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I ran another quick test, and was able to collect without having a city. All I had to do was have more units on their continent. However, below Supreme, things may be different. In all tests, I had to wait a turn after adding or subtracting units so that the AI's "estimate" of my military strength could be updated on their own turns.

The amounts you list are typical, but I often get different amounts, e.g. 100 gold when they only have a little more or 50 gold for treasuries between 50 and 100. I think the amount they will part with has something to do with their characteristics, with agressive civs being the stingiest.

Once in a while I'll get 25 when an AI is between 25 and 50, too, but watch out under 50, because you may get a useless tech instead.

	16-05-2003 02:41									#114
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Techs are the killers: I often stop asking when they have several I am trying to skip. Especially Pottery...

	20-05-2004 02:40									#115
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I realize this is a tad late....

A year ago my health forced me to drop out of this game. I am pleased to report that the worst did not happen, and indeed, I have had a good deal of improvement. I can see well enough now to be able to play a bit at a time without the crushing headaches and I no longer need an assistant. To celebrate, I have finished this game.

The result was not too bad. Just one turn sooner and I would have cracked the 900 barrier. Looking over some of the offered saves, I think I picked a different starting arrangement, especially the location of the capital. Of the cities in the ending queue, London and Nottingham were "acquired" after launch. Having an alliance with the Indians from the begining was very helpful, and they never became a threat after launch. I was able to use the"build on the same turn" technique to get Apollo the same turn as Space Flight. That was satisfying!!

Here is the save from the turn before Landing and the Summary follows.

Monk

Attachment: ca_a914.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	20-05-2004 02:42									#116
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Summary Format

Governments

2250b.. Monarchy
525b.. Republic
140a.. Democracy
na... Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders

1300b.. MPE
1050b.. HG
750b.. Michaelangelo's
450b.. ST
650b.. Colossus
125b.. Copernicus
220a.. Isaac's
120a.. Leo
460a.. Darwin's
na... SETI
820a.. Apollo

SSC stats

425b.. size 8
325b.. size 12
100b.. size 21
380a.. max. size...30

Techs

1850b.. Trade
80a.. Invention
400a.. Railroad
120a.. Democracy
520a.. Automobile
600a.. Nuclear Power
700a.. Computers
720a.. Flight
820a.. Space Flight
14.. Total Techs from AI trades

900a.. Launch
915a.. AC arrival

Monk

	20-05-2004 02:50									#117
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I won't comment on the game, but there is something else in your post much more worth an answer!

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk A year ago my health forced me to drop out of this game. I am pleased to report that the worst did not happen, and indeed, I have had a good deal of improvement. I can see well enough now to be able to play a bit at a time without the crushing headaches and I no longer need an assistant.

Monk, these news just put me in an brilliant mood!

I am really, really glad for you (and, egoistically, for us all, because it means we will have the pleasure/honour to read you more often! )

	20-05-2004 03:01									#118
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Cyrion beats me by a few minutes, but



Happy with you, Monk!

(and thanks a lot to your assistent, who made a tremendous job IMO)

	20-05-2004 19:22									#119
	Got spare money?

Monk,

I have downloaded your game and will take a look, but the improvement of your health is the best of news.

Maybe we can start another comparison game in the near future to help celebrate.

	20-05-2004 20:03									#120
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My deepest and heartfelt thanks to you all for your good thoughts. I really feel like I have had your help along the way and it really means a lot to me.

I would like very much to play another game but not just yet. I am somewhat involved in some open SXN games that need to be finished first. Then, look out!!

Monk