06-04-2003 21:39									#1
	Turn 91, 750 BC Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Research at 80%, Feudalism in 4 turns. Should be possible to get it in 3
- Luxuries at 20%
- 215 gold cash, -37/turn.

Urgent questions:
- Do we want to push ahead to get Feudalism as quickly as possible?
- Do we want to go ahead and upgrade a warrior or two to try to stop being weak compared with Vox?
- Where do we want our current settler to settle?
- Where do we want to settle next after that?

A golden opportunity: Vox's WM for 95(!) gold- yes or no? (Vote yes, we couldn't have hoped for a better deal!)

Military:
- Warriors other than our main three pickets withdraw to Hurricane for possible upgrade.
- Any other orders from our generals?

Economy:
- Attention: I met a decision different from the turn orders concerning the workers near EotS. Details in the 775bc thread (SR)

- Workers(3) 4 of EotS move 844 (to road (1) and then mine (2) the Hill)
- Worker 1 of Tempest moves 984 (to road (3) the Incense Hill before the worker gang moves on to mine it)
- Worker 8 of Cyclone moves 877 (heading for the Plains 7 of Tempest)
- Worker 111 of Tempest moves 687 (will help build mine (3) with Worker finishing road (1) there)
- Worker 6 of Monsoon moves 324 (to road (3) Forest)
- Worker 8 of Typhoon moves 888 (to road (2) Plains)
- Worker 4 of Sandstorm builds road (5) (will need 1 more Worker to finish the mine in time)
- Worker 8 of Tornado builds road (3)

Diplomacy:

Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers (Orders last revised April 5.)

Last edited by zeit on 08-04-2003 at 03:27

	06-04-2003 23:37									#2
	Re: Turn 91, 750 BC Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph - Where do we want our current settler to settle?

IMHO one tile 8 of its current position (i.e. on the incense tile on the coast).

	07-04-2003 00:35									#3
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Seconded.

	07-04-2003 00:40									#4
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think we should plopp the city where it is now, and then build another one 8-8 of it. That gives us more coast tiles to work with ($$).

	07-04-2003 00:49									#5
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SR: That's what Dominae said too, IIRC, although Aeson was more in favour of moving 8 before settling.

In a case where opinion is fairly evenly split it's player's call to make, I guess. Both options have some merit.

	07-04-2003 01:00									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I much prefer to have two coastal cities in the western desert. In the short term, being able to defer building a temple in Hurricane is probably worth as much as bening able to add a couple extra workers to cities, and in the long term (if there is a long term, and I'm not inclined to bet against there being one), coastal cities can be nice for income. Also note that a desert city in our settler's current location would have access to an irrigated plains that it could either work itself or open up for Tempest, whichever is more valuable at a given time.

	07-04-2003 01:03									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

We need all available workers to converge on Tempest at this point. We have 6 turns to finish it's improvements. I don't think we can make it, but it will at least be close.

The Worker stack by EotS moves 844 to road and then mine the Hill. 1st turn move, 2nd road, 3rd-4th mine. They then have enough time to mine another hill which needs it (incense in this scenario), if the road is already in place.

Worker 1 of Tempest moves 984 onto Tempest's Incense hill to road it. ETA 4 turns. Should be done in time for the 3 Workers to come mine it.

Worker 8 of Cyclone moves to the Plains 7 of Tempest (877787) to road it then mine it. ETA 6 turns (we add another worker to the job on turn 5, EotS's 2nd).

Worker 111 of Tempest moves 687 to start mine with Worker just finishing up the road there. ETA 4 turns.

Worker 6 of Monsoon moves 324 onto the Forest to road it, ETA 4 turns.

---------------

If we keep with full food capacity in Tempest, it should be set to grow to size 7 on the 6th turn. So on the 5th turn we rush the Aquaduct. On the 6th turn we can have a few workers to add, and on the 7th we finish building Tempest up to size 12.

----------------------

To expand the borders in time, we need to do one of 3 things:

Build our W Desert city where the Settler is right now, and rush the Temple in Monsoon this turn. Monsoon's borders need to expand by turn 7, to open up the Incense Hill for Hurricane to work. ETA 6 turns for Incense Hill, 92g for rushing.

Build our W Desert city where the Settler is right now, and build the other W Desert city with our next Settler from Cyclone. That will open up all the tiles Tempest needs before it needs them. ETA 6 turns for Incense Hill, 0g for rushing.

Build our W Desert city 8 from where it is right now, and rush a Temple in Bolderberg next turn. ETA 7 turns for Hill, 92g for rushing.

-------------------------

For the Aquaduct, I think we need ~220 gold to rush it. If we finish Feudalism in 3 more turns, that would give us 2 turns to save up cash, and roughly 100 gold saved up. We are getting more than 60gpt at 80% right? If we can get an exact number of shields towards an Aquaduct that would help in planning.

	07-04-2003 01:15									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We also need 3 mined plains for use in EotS. We can get this done in time.

Worker 8 of Typhoon moves 888 to road and mine Plains tile, ETA 6 turns.

First Worker from EotS mines the Plains tile 74 of EotS (if we build the W Desert city where it is). Tempest can have +5 food per turn still at size 6, and we don't need any more growth than that. That should free up another FP for use in EotS, which we then start building up pop in. This does mean that the W Desert city won't have a +2 food source though. ETA on mine 4 turns. This worker can then take the last turn on the other mine, dropping it's ETA to 5 turns.

Cyclone starts building 2 turn Workers after the next Settler to make up for EotS starting to build up population. Bolderberg and Tornado time Settler builds for the turn after the Pyramids complete. This will give us enough Settlers to settle everywhere we want to for now, and enough Workers to build up EotS to size 12 in time. EotS can start a Marketplace build while it's population rises.

	07-04-2003 02:10									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

What does adding so many workers to Tempest so quickly do to our ability to improve tiles for other cities? If we'd just be gaining short-term production at the expense of long-term production, I'm not sure it's worth it.

	07-04-2003 02:52									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Depends on what we do with it and other cities. If we put Cyclone on 1 turn workers, we'll probably still be ahead of the terrain improvements. Just about everything is done in the S already, and W Desert cities won't grow fast enough to need more than 1 Worker out there.

Where the lower number of Workers might show up is if we take Vox out relatively quickly, and can capture at least some of their cities. Of course having Tempest built up quickly increases our odds of doing so.

As for short-term vs long-term, there isn't really any difference. If we put ourselves behind in worker turns, that's not a long term problem... eventually the improvements will be done anyways. It's trading short term tile use in Tempest for short term improved tile use in other cities. It's much more beneficial for Tempest to be using a mined Hill in our GA for a couple extra turns than it's going to be for a city further down the road using a mined grassland vs an unmined one for a couple extra turns.

	07-04-2003 03:03									#11
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Aeson, do you know by heart how much shields you can get at size 12, in GA, in Tempest? If it would be high enough to set it apart as a wonder prebuild (we might want Leo's or one of the happiness wonders soon), maybe a few turns delay aren't important on those extra shields, as we would be running a reserve anyway.

As to choosing between your 3 options: I would go for option 1 if we have the cash, otherwise option 2. I don't really want to spend our next settler there, it would serve us better closer to Vox. Seeing as corruption to other cities will be influenced by 2 cities, maybe we can delay that a little. I'm not sure if it is worth the 92 cash, though.

In the end, I would love to see 2 cities there, so option 3 (building only 1) I wouldn't want to go for, certainly not as it costs us the same as leaving space to fill later.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 03:08									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh, other remark: are we still certain we want to have feud fast? I would take the time to save a little cash, we are already ahead of the rest of the world, and can easily pause now. It might not be so easy before chivalry. So... I vote to get us to 6-7 turns towards Feud again, so that we have ample time to close deals, and leave some room for negotiating with Vox (maybe keeping it from Vox as suggested in the comments thread) as well.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 03:21									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Is any other team planning to research Feudalism, and if so, how many?

The main reasons I can think of for slowing Feudalism down are 1) to slow down other teams' research of it, 2) to put more money in our coffers, 3) to keep on building Spearmen. Regarding the first reason, I believe we will have completed it first no matter what, so the only benefit here is if we make another team waste Beakers. How confident are we that we can arrange this? As for the second reason, do we need that much gold right now for rush-buys? Finally, have we connected Iron yet, and if so, is it efficient for us to make the jump from 20 Shields to 30 Shields?

(Sorry for all the questions, I've been away for a while...)


Dominae

	07-04-2003 03:31									#14
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Dom, no Feud from someone else, if we are fast enough: negotiations with GoW (the only other team going for it) mentioned that if the price would be right, they want to get it from us instead of doing it themselves.

Spears are not that needed: if all goes well, we will be in our GA in 6 turns, after which we'll have at least one 30 shield city to build pikes in one turn, maybe more (depending on wonderbuilds). The difference can only be gained if we build WCs instead of possibly horsemen, which cost the same in upgrade. We're not abundant in cash right now, though.

Gold is a bit of a problem, we will need at least some to rushbuy. But we hope that with the deals on feud, enough cash will enter our coffers to get a bit decent again.

That said, I still think we should delay at least to 6 turns from now, maybe 7. 6 because it would coincide with our GA, so that we don't lose any unexpected beakers we could get when switching.

DeepO

	07-04-2003 03:40									#15
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Tempest has 30 shields per turn after waste in our GA at size 12, same as EotS and Hurricane. For a Marketplace/Library build, it isn't all that important to incease the shield output... what level would suffice is something I haven't looked into.

I think it's a moot point anyways, we have enough Workers to do what we need to do after building Tempest and EotS to size 12. It does require we keep Cyclone on Workers after our GA starts, for at least a little while.

	07-04-2003 04:00									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

I wouldn't worry about Cyclone, as long as we can use 1 turn workers, those are going to be worth more then commerce, or shields. Plus, it's production isn't really lost, it is being used by the cities surrounding it, which would have been less otherwise. So let's assume we keep Cyclone at 1-turns workers the rest of our GA, unless we need e.g. a settler, or have too much population in our other cities which we want to purge with workers. 20 extra workers would be awesome to rush pop (instead of poprush) cities, and to get that jungle out of the way immediately.

Anyone preparing a city site proposal map for the former Vox lands yet?

DeepO

	07-04-2003 05:04									#17
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Ok... At size 10 in Tempest we have 25 shields per turn (doesn't use the Forest or Mined Plains). This would be perfect for a Marketplace build. Costs us 3 Workers. We still get +2 food.

At size 11, we have 27 shields per turn, as close as we can get to a perfect Library build there (3 turns, 81 shields). With a bit of tile swapping we can probably save that extra shield in one of the surrounding cities. Would allows us to swap a hill tile with a surrounding city (most likely Arashi) for those 3 turns as well, so we don't lose anything production wise. Costs us 4 Workers. +1 food per turn.

At size 8 we get 20 shields per turn. Perfect for a 2 turn Barracks build. +3 food per turn. Then we can either pump out WC's, build up to size 10 (with a bit different tile usage, +2 food per turn) for 24 shields per turn (3 turn Knights), or build up to size 12 for 30 shields per turn (1 turn Horses/Swords/Pikes). Costs us 1 Worker initially, then 2-4 Workers 2 turns later.

	07-04-2003 05:14									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think the size 8 Barracks then size 10/12 units would work best. Tempest has a bit of corruption, so EotS is certainly a better Marketplace/Library site. Nothing says we can't do build improvemetns at both though, if we hold off on hitting Vox. If we are going to hit Vox, at least 1 of our big cities needs to pump out some units.

The extra worker turns can be used to develope the other two Hills in the area, for use with Monsoon (other Incense Hill) and Bolderberg (Southernmost Hill). After that, it looks like we are ahead of Worker turns until we need to mine the 3 mountains by Arashi.

--------------

I was wrong about EotS getting to 30 shields per turn so quickly. We need to mine all of the Plains W of the river in it's radius for it to hit that point. With Cyclone on 1 Worker per turn we should still be able to make it up to 30 by the time EotS would finish it's Marketplace (which it does fine at ~25 shields per turn).

	07-04-2003 05:24									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Aeson, could you please edit your idea for worker orders for this turn into the turn thread? Then I can look them over and see if I have any questions. (We may want to make that standard operating procedure for the next few turns since you've gamed this out and I haven't.)

By the way, would you be interested in becoming a third player for the team? Then you'd have access to the saves, and it might help our turnaround time sometimes.

Nathan

	07-04-2003 05:39									#20
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I don't want access to the saves of any sort. I'd rather not have to quit GS because of a screwup like happened in the ISDG.

I'll edit in the orders, just check to make sure that all the workers I think are going to be finishing up their jobs and ready for new orders are actually at that point. It's sometimes hard to keep it all straight just by looking at screenshots.

	07-04-2003 06:03									#21
	Tired of ads?

What happened in the ISDG? I haven't been keeping up with it lately.

	07-04-2003 06:06									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Just a mess up opening the wrong save at the wrong time while I was checking GOTM results the other night.

	07-04-2003 06:10									#23
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As for where to build the new city, I think it has to be where it is now, and the one after build just up the coast. We just don't have the gold available at this point to rush the Temple, Aquaduct, and maintain the safety valve of upgrading Swords if they are needed.

The second W Desert city (next Settler out of Cyclone) isn't going to be worth much for a while, but at least can get a jump on building it's Harbor.

	07-04-2003 06:51									#24
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Aeson Just a mess up opening the wrong save at the wrong time while I was checking GOTM results the other night.

Hope to have you back on board as soon as possible...

	08-04-2003 03:22									#25
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Urgent message from Beta, including what i believe to be an unbelievable bargain: Vox's world map for 95(!) including all of Bob and parts of Lego. Quickly- yes or no.

This is a great opportunity for us, well worth 95 gold (are the kidding?!).

Vote yes for this- and hold the turn if necessary- Vox will send their map this turn. (invasion to Bob probably in this turn or the next).

	08-04-2003 03:43									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

As I said in the Vox thread, yes.

	08-04-2003 05:06									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

95 gold









what a deal!

	08-04-2003 12:42									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

I have the turn open. Vox's offer of a world map is on the table. I'm offering 95 gold and accepting their offer. If all goes well, we'll have our map next turn.

	08-04-2003 12:44									#30
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Any last-minute objections to building our city where the settler is now? Also, any idea for names?