31-05-2003 01:37									#361
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I have only one word for you Imran : Trashers!

	31-05-2003 01:40									#362
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They look like a good young team. They'll never be in my hearts though as my hometown Devils .

I just read a good article on ESPN.com saying Scott Stevens, when he retires will be ranked among the all time great defensemen in NHL history. I have to agree. He's the heart and soul of this team, and while Marty will win the Conn Smythe if we win the cup, I wouldn't be surprised if Scotty does.

	31-05-2003 03:59									#363
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No Imran, if Anaheim even scores a goal in this playoffs, it would be worse than them getting shut out and losing in 4. The last thing the NHL needs is some crappy, system-team winning the Cup. Other than Kariya and Gigure, that team is full of guys I wouldn't pick for a list of the top 100 players in the NHL.

It's not the system I mind as much as the lack of decent players. When NJ won their first Cup, I was a bit dismayed that a system won, but I was able to accept it and almost form a liking for the team because they had a core group of guys that were great: Brodeur, Stevens, Niedermayer...

These kind of system teams are just that... system teams. They play a style of hockey which exploits the rules. Put that Anaheim team on International ice, or even get rid of the two-line pass... and they miss the playoffs.

Call me crazy, call me stupid, call me a moron... but I like watching good hockey players play hockey. Not some orchestrated system chipping away a puck for two periods before someone gets a rebound goal.

	31-05-2003 04:53									#364
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the nfl should abolish rushing plays cos it's boring to watch teams run the ball all the time.

	31-05-2003 05:43									#365
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Sava, you have an inflated idea of what 'hockey' IS! Hockey has always been about the ugly rebound goal. What do you think Dave Andrychuk relied on for his career? And he didn't really play on 'system' teams.

This whining is silly, especially when you notice that the great Montreal Canadian teams of the 50s and 60s played a 'system'. In fact, they invented the neutral zone trap. Every team plays a system.

	01-06-2003 04:29									#366
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^ Imran, the 50s/60s Canadiens could beat you both ways. They were scoring at a pace of over 3.5 goals per game from the 57-58 season right up through 61-62, and were the league's highest-scoring team from 53-54 to 62-63. I don't think anyone could possibly characterize either the Ducks or Devils as high-scoring in any sense of the word.

	01-06-2003 04:32									#367
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What does high-scoring or not high-scoring have to do with if a team played a 'SYSTEM' . The Canadians played a system. They played neutral zone trap hockey, their offensive stars were so skilled that they'd score a lot too. What, you don't think Jacques Lemaire came up with the system by himself, did you?

	01-06-2003 08:32									#368
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Ducks win 3-2, only Brodeur kept the Devils in the game and even he let in the most laughable goal I've ever seen.

Go Ducks!

	01-06-2003 11:24									#369
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui What does high-scoring or not high-scoring have to do with if a team played a 'SYSTEM' . The Canadians played a system. They played neutral zone trap hockey, their offensive stars were so skilled that they'd score a lot too. What, you don't think Jacques Lemaire came up with the system by himself, did you?

I thought he did.

As for neutral zone trap hockey, are we talking about Canadians or the Canadiens? You'll have to explain your comments more, or provide links, before I believe your theory.

	02-06-2003 03:59									#370
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Jacques Lemaire when he was coaching the Devils and talking about the trap said that was the system that he played with the Montreal Canadiens hockey team.

This Montreal Gazette article says it was invented in Sweden in the 70s and brought over by many NHL coaches, but became synonymous with Lemaire:

http://www.geocities.com/torpedohockey/montreal.htm

The first modern neutral zone trap is said to be used first by the 85-86 Montreal Canadiens (the ones that won the cup in front of Roy), but Lemaire wasn't coach of that team anymore at that time. Anyway, Jacques says the system he used in New Jersey is based off the system he was used to when he was a player.

	02-06-2003 05:45									#371
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Sh!t, an American teaching a Canadian something about hockey. Well, live and learn.

Thanks for the link Imran

	02-06-2003 05:49									#372
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quote: Sh!t, an American teaching a Canadian something about hockey. Well, live and learn.

No prob, but I remember clear as day Lemaire saying the trap was the system he used as a player in Montreal. Maybe he was lying (I don't see why he would be), but that is what he said. Though, you can blame the entire thing on the Swedes if you want (I'm sure the Fins would love to hear that ).

	02-06-2003 05:56									#373
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Imran... since you proclaim to have a good grasp on hockey history, perhaps you can appreciate the evolution of skill. Trapping systems work due to a dillution of talent. Hence, those Montreal teams and their early trap-style stopped working, most notably, when Bobby Orr came around and revolutionized how the defence position was used. He was good enough to beat the system, and teams stopped playing it. My whining is quite specific, yet you seem to have misunderstood.

I'll restate and clarify the motives behind my rants and what I'm talking about.

1. Offense is down. The proportion of garbage vs pretty goals aside, even a garbage goal is exciting... and since the number of garbage and pretty goals are down, excitement is down. Good goalie play is also exciting, but the blocking, hooking, holding and obstruction that comes with the trap also decreases the number of quality scoring chances. Less quality chances = less amazing saves.

2. Good players defeat defensive systems. There is a lack of desperaty in the overall skill of players, hence... more teams play systems. Since these defensive games are less exciting, I don't know about you, but I like watching goals instead of dump and chase; fan interest is down. To accomodate this, I have suggested rule changes in the other thread.

Any future replies to my rule changes and such should be in the other thread. Thanks.

go NJ!

	02-06-2003 06:16									#374
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quote: Trapping systems work due to a dillution of talent.

Not always. That '95 Detroit team was loaded up and down with talent, with people that could skate around you like you were sitting still. Yet the trap worked perfectly against them and swept them. No one, I would think, would call that '95 Detroit team devoid of talent.

Your problem is that many talent poor teams play the trap. Yeah... but they usually don't go very far. Trapping teams that go far HAVE talent. Minnesota this year may have trapped their way to the Western Conference Finals, but you cannot deny the speed and talent of that young team.

	02-06-2003 06:26									#375
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Not always. That '95 Detroit team was loaded up and down with talent, with people that could skate around you like you were sitting still. Yet the trap worked perfectly against them and swept them. No one, I would think, would call that '95 Detroit team devoid of talent.

That's not the entire story behind that series. The trap worked for New Jersey, but they also had the skill to make it work against that Detroit team. Replace Brodeur with an average goalie and Detroit wins.

quote: Your problem is that many talent poor teams play the trap. Yeah... but they usually don't go very far. Trapping teams that go far HAVE talent. Minnesota this year may have trapped their way to the Western Conference Finals, but you cannot deny the speed and talent of that young team.

Look at the '96 Florida Panthers... But yes, you are correct. That's why I proposed the rule changes in the other thread. It's not the trap I have a problem with per se'. It's the exclusion of an offensive game. Minnesota is a perfect example of what I'm getting at. They played the same system since they started, yet had success because they have the skill now. Before, they played non-stop trap. Now, they trap defensively, and are able to score using their skill guys. I just want to see rule changes that make it more feasible for offensively skilled guys to showcase their talent.

	02-06-2003 06:33									#376
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quote: Replace Brodeur with an average goalie and Detroit wins.

Sava... replace ANY Stanley Cup winning goalie with an average one and the other team wins .

I mean, you think Colorado wins a Cup without Roy?

quote: Look at the '96 Florida Panthers

That was a BAAAAD year for the Eastern Conference. All the teams there sucked that year. It happens.

quote: I just want to see rule changes that make it more feasible for offensively skilled guys to showcase their talent.

Yeah, I agree with some (no red line) and disagree with others (able to hit goalies outside the crease), but you said to talk about that in the other thread .

	02-06-2003 06:57									#377
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quote: Yet the trap worked perfectly against them and swept them

quote: Sava... replace ANY Stanley Cup winning goalie with an average one and the other team wins

You said the trap "swept them". If the trap did it, than they didn't need Brodeur.

quote: That was a BAAAAD year for the Eastern Conference. All the teams there sucked that year. It happens.

I agree... the top four teams were in the West that year.

	02-06-2003 07:00									#378
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quote: You said the trap "swept them". If the trap did it, than they didn't need Brodeur.

The trap requires a good goalie. In fact it doesn't really work without one. It's a main part of the system. You build a trapping team from the goalie out.

	02-06-2003 07:20									#379
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Winning requires a good goalie. Many NHL teams trap and still suck.

	02-06-2003 07:27									#380
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quote: Many NHL teams trap and still suck.

But they are usually built on a goalie. He is usually the star of the team. The rest of the team might stink, but they base it on the goalie.

	02-06-2003 07:31									#381
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Many NHL teams trap and still suck. But they are usually built on a goalie. He is usually the star of the team. The rest of the team might stink, but they base it on the goalie.

This is irrelevant. Good goaltending is the goal of every hockey team.

	03-06-2003 00:02									#382
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Don't forget that the Panthers of '96 basically got demolished after the run by the front office. But dear lord, was I rooting for them that year... and one of the things that pissed me off was that after that run they were told to ditch the rubber rats while Detroit got to keep throwing the real octopi (albeit at a reduced rate) because they're friggin' Detroit.

And may I also point out that the trap was not the only thing that kept Minnesota going forward... not only did they have a flair for dramatic comebacks, but until they ran into J.S. Giguere, they led the NHL in playoff scoring. You can bet that the trap wasn't responsible for those two intangibles.

The Minnesota/Anaheim series was ALL Giguere - Minnesota had their shots (and plenty of them). Contrast that with the Finals so far - it's NOT Brodeur that's carrying the Devils right now. The Devils' D stopped enough shots to feed the homeless in the first two games, and when the D fell apart on Saturday, Brodeur did too, allowing two bad goals (one of them so ridiculous it deserves to be on blooper reels for years).

Tonight's really crucial: Both teams need it. Brodeur, Stevens & Co. need to get their confidence back, and Anaheim needs to get even. I say whichever team gets rattled first will lose, and that will be...

...the Devils.

(Sorry, Imran, but NO team in this year's playoffs have been more clutch in crunch time than the Ducks.)

	03-06-2003 00:14									#383
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Funny that you dissapeared when the Devils were winning .

Btw, the Devs won Game 1, just in case you forgot. I hoped you liked that crow .

	03-06-2003 03:51									#384
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Yeah, I did. I kinda overestimated Niedermeyer's value to the Devils and underestimated the effect that almost two weeks off would have on Anaheim. And I didn't disappear... I was caught up in other things (namely, improving my own little blossoming community with the *other* three-letter acronym) and then I got sick. Sue me for not being around for you to verbally rub in to.

And I further add to what I said below: Whoever wins tonight will be the Stanley Cup Champions. Just wait for Jiggy to get hot again, Imran. JUST WAIT.

	03-06-2003 03:53									#385
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Yes, because goalies turn on and off their hotness like that . I hope that crow wasn't too bitter tasting... you know calling a guy 'God' then having him lit up wasn't the exactly the best thing that could have happened to your prediction. Perhaps you should learn some more hockey before making more 'predicitions'?

Ducks could win, Devils could win... but just because the Ducks win tonight doesn't mean they'll win the series. Jersey has home ice advantage and they've been on fire at home.

	03-06-2003 04:24									#386
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reismark, I don't mean any offense, but are you a fair-weather fan? You've got a Tampa Bay avatar and you're a Duck's fan.

	03-06-2003 04:25									#387
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Sava, that he is. He admits he doesn't know much about hockey. That and he has this thing where he almost always roots for the underdog (when he isn't making idiotic predictions )... like a child .

	03-06-2003 04:31									#388
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Tampa Bay was the underdog in the Super Bowl?

	03-06-2003 04:36									#389
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No, he's been a Tampa fan for a while (originally because they were underdogs in the NFC and then because they were underdogs to the Rams... no matter what he says)... predicting they'd win a Superbowl for the past 4 seasons. One year he was bound to get it right... because he'd keep on saying it until they won .

--

And of course his hockey knowledge is typified by this statement he made (hilarious as Hell):

quote: NO team in this year's playoffs have been more clutch in crunch time than the Ducks

When the Ducks actually GET to crunch time (Game 3 was the first game, IIRC, where they were in that position) then maybe you can make that statement .

	03-06-2003 04:59									#390
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Yeah, the Ducks, IIRC, haven't been behind in a series until getting to NJ.

Devils in 5...

I'll stop watching the NHL if the Ducks win the Cup.