08-04-2003 22:33									#1
	Immortal Beloved - Operational Planning Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Now that we are about to start up, I thought a new opeartional planning thread would be useful to discuss plans and tactics as this develops.

I will start with two items.

The first is - who makes the first attack. I originally thought it should be General Jon - being the team leader. But he should rightly accompany the army south. So I then thought it appropriate that it be one of the first two controllers - Eli or Diss. And as Diss is awol for a bit - the honor therefore falls to Eli the Enlightened Eliminator to taste the first Voxian victory in this game.

Eat em raw, Eli!!!

And the second point - and this may be what wins it for us folks - and we may need to decide how we might adjust our strategy. I have received a piece of info that has come very much third hand to us - but which I deem reliable. It was from a discussion long ago with a member of GS. And it tells us where their iron supply is.

I have paraphrased it so the original source of info can not be identified.

"It is to the east of the capital, on the coast, and near the northern border."

Harry and Mo - this may be up to you.

Last edited by Beta on 09-04-2003 at 02:19

	08-04-2003 22:38									#2
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Yes, Definately! I agree, Harry and Mo should cut their iron supply on the first turn of the war.

	08-04-2003 23:35									#3
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I think we shouldnt publicly declare the war. This way they *might* not notice the death of the Warrior and the change of relations, thus earning us at least another turn.

	09-04-2003 00:02									#4
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quote: Eat em raw, Eli!!!

* Eli yells his battle cry.

Not in the face! Not in the face!

Oops, wrong one.

ATTAAAAAAAAACK!!!!!!!

	09-04-2003 02:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Eli I think we shouldnt publicly declare the war. This way they *might* not notice the death of the Warrior and the change of relations, thus earning us at least another turn.

Do you think this would work?

I am willing to try it.

	09-04-2003 02:17									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Yes, Definately! I agree, Harry and Mo should cut their iron supply on the first turn of the war.

Their first mission was to kill the warrior. Then they move to the mountains, while the galley picks up two more troops for insertion on the east coast.

Besides - although we now have a rough idea where it is - we don't know exactly. I suspect - given the two iron sites we do know about - that it is on a mountain. Which would be a good a good thing - as it is not under a city.

On the other hand - the advantage of surprise - and the ability to cut their iron supply quickly far outweighs the killing of a warrior.

How do other feel about this?

	09-04-2003 02:43									#7
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I rather like to cut their iron supply than to take their warrior down. It's much more important. I cutting the iron fast is the way to go here...

--Kon--

	09-04-2003 02:44									#8
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quote: Do you think this would work? I am willing to try it.

I wouldnt bet on it, but it's possible.

	09-04-2003 03:24									#9
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We need to decide whether we publicly decalre war - or whether we just lay quiet and see what happens,

If we do publicly declare, this is the proposed announcement:

Vox Public Announcement - Operation Immortal Beloved

These are solemn times.

While Vox Controli's attention has been focused on the settlement of the continent, the nation to our south, Gathering Storm, has used this window of opportunity to show aggression towards their one-time friends and neighbours of the north.

First it was trade pact pressures. Then a road being built towards us - but for what purpose? And then most recently - the final straw - GS observer warriors moving off of their negotiated positions to cut key road links within Vox. A prelude to invasion?

These transgressions will not be allowed to continue. The Voxian senate immediately called an emergency session to deal with this new and unexpected threat. The vote was unanimous.

Vox Controli declares war on Gathering Storm.

Operation Immortal Beloved is launched.

(From the One Book)

Psalm 19

Then there were Immortals,
And the nation of Vox Controli, whole.
Our enemy will feel the might,
May the One have mercy on their soul.

Last edited by Beta on 09-04-2003 at 03:32

	09-04-2003 03:59									#10
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First, I must say your letter is a great declaration of war, it would be a shame to waste it. I don't think GS will not notice they're at war with us... They are experienced players and are quite attentive to what goes on in a game...

They will even get a popup saying :"Vox Controli has declared war on you!" This can't easily be overlooked...

I don't think it will work, but I'll go with the rest of the team and support the chosen option...

--Kon--

	09-04-2003 04:04									#11
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quote: "It is to the east of the capital, on the coast, and near the northern border." Harry and Mo - this may be up to you.

This follows with my thoughts in other threads about making sure we cover both sets of mountains. Harry and Mo will need backup. You know they will mass forces to get the iron back.

quote: Yes, Definately! I agree, Harry and Mo should cut their iron supply on the first turn of the war.

It would be nice but I don't think it could be done. Maybe if we delayed the war a turn. Part of the problem is that GS will see our galley heading down the coast before the war starts. More thoughts on this tonight when I get home and check out maps.

	09-04-2003 04:19									#12
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check the map of GS here: http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Konquest02/mapGS.jpg

Red dots are almost certain cities and the green one is a probable city.

According to this description, their iron would be located near the 6-6-9 city, just east of the capital, as this city has all of the mentionned characteristics. Most likely, their iron is located there...

Their horses could be anywhere, but I would be nice to cut them too...

	09-04-2003 04:38									#13
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I agree Kon - that is about where I put it too. And as per our chat last night - I think the other city sites are right on or very close. Argha has also started a similar thread.

And I agree with Harry too - that rushing Harry and Mo there would just get them elimintade early. I say stick to the plan.

Eliminate the warrior - one less Medieval Infantry to worry about. Then move Harry amd Mo by foot to the mountain chain. The galley returns to the area of iron mountain to pick up more reinforcements - and will be back in 3 turns with what I think should be a spearman and an Immortal.

By then we should have some sense of what is going on - and whether we want to ferry more troops in by galley from iron mountain - or go overland from Dissidentville.

	09-04-2003 04:59									#14
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How reliable is the

quote: "It is to the east of the capital, on the coast, and near the northern border."

The question is, is it reliable enough to base part of our plan on it?

I think we don't have much choice, but it's nice to know this...

	09-04-2003 05:20									#15
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I know I have been vague about my sources - that is at their request. But I am not being BS'd by my primary source, and there was no reason for his source to BS him, and the actual quote comes from someone who would know. So I suspect it is fairly reliable. And it is an old quote, dragged out of an old chat log - well before we even contemplated this operation - so we can be fairly sure it is not designed mis-information.

The site also makes sense given the two sources of iron we can see. Both are in mountains - near the coasts - and near the centre of the landmass we are on.

the only other possibility I can see is that GS has another iron source much further south that is not connected.

	09-04-2003 05:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 I don't think GS will not notice they're at war with us... They are experienced players and are quite attentive to what goes on in a game... They will even get a popup saying :"Vox Controli has declared war on you!" This can't easily be overlooked... --Kon--

I agree. I say we declare war. Let's be upfront about this.

	09-04-2003 07:14									#17
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Ok, I agree - we declare war - but only AFTER we take their warriors out. No sense in giving them a free turn to run away.

	09-04-2003 07:21									#18
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Agreed - I will play our turn. We take out the northern warrior and the one on the east coast gets cornered. He gets it on the second turn. All our warriors meanwhile pull back for Dissidentville and upgrading.

And after our turn is played - we post.

And I will put some disclaimer on the other Public Announcement Thread that Operation MacArthur is cancelled. As of the last Vox turn, there are no forces on the continent. All of which is true, btw.

	09-04-2003 07:31									#19
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Or we can let GS believe that we've started a two-front war (at least for the time being). This way they (GS) might take the forces they see for granted and think that most of our force is envolved on Bob.

	09-04-2003 07:37									#20
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We need some thoughts on which cities we tackle and what we do when we take them.

The first city will no doubt be the one just south of the mountains from Dissidentville. But do we raze it? We need a foward base of some sort - and having use of the road network we would capture would be great - but it is very close to their capitol, far from ours, and would be surrounded on at least two - probably 3 sides by GS cities. That makes it ripe for cultural conversion back to GS. Which would be a disaster.

Maybe we raze it, and claim Monsoon.

And then the decision is whether go for the capitol or by-pass it and aim for the shield cities. This seems to be the popular and logical choice. If we did take the Eye - it would knock their capitol back to another city - which actually could increase the production of those cities. On the other hand - if the Eye is central - we could cut a big hole in their infrastructure.

But we would be fighting on the plains - which as Harry has pointed out - could be deadly for us.

So - I think the main force continues down the mountains. Any chariot attacks should be easily repelled. This force will target cities close to those mountains - and at least we will get a good sense of the lay of the land.

Another force clearly needs to establish itself on the east coast. One - intel indicates their iron is there. And two - we know that at least two cities other than the Eye are nearby targets - the city north of the eye, and one that is east - presumably Hurricane. Hurricane being their second city may be a high-shiled city.

So - Harry and Mo take out the warrior - and enter the mountains. The galley heads back - and in three turns can deposit two more Immortals onto the mountain chain. As warriors are upgraded in Dissidentville, we can get them to Iron Mountain in two turns, and then two galley moves to the mountains.

Does this work for you guys?

And of course - as things unfold - we will have to adjust as necessary.

	09-04-2003 07:43									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Wittlich Or we can let GS believe that we've started a two-front war (at least for the time being). This way they (GS) might take the forces they see for granted and think that most of our force is envolved on Bob.

Hmmm. Hadn't thought of this. Think they would buy it. They might. GoW is at war with us, in-game. It could be another stupid thing that we have done. Great idea, Witt!

The rhetoric so far is convincing. Yes - I like this. Maybe we can even get NeuD to declare war on us as well.

To GS it will appear we are isolated in the world - and gone lunatic. Little do they know that the rest of the world supports us, either directly or indirectly.

Anything we can do to get them to under-react - even in the slightest - would be good.

I will amend my statement in the MacArthur thread to read "Notwithstanding the current issues on the homefront, Vox Controli stands by its claim to this land and is committed to this operation."

Of course - we will need to PM the Bobians.

	09-04-2003 07:54									#22
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What if we ignore Monsoon for the time being (it was just built, so has no improvements and there is nothing special about it) and aim for the cities east of their capital?

I wish we can strike first at their capital, but being surrounded by plains, they will have the first stike at us...but if it can be taken....

Does their capital still only have one chariot stationed there? If so, it IS a very tempting target...

	09-04-2003 10:50									#23
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Financing Update after the GA has kicked in.

Currently - 380
Current GPT - 30
If we can maintain the +30 gpt over the netire period of the GA, that would be 600 gold over the next 20 turns.

Plus - 200-300 loan from Lego. Let's say 200.

Plus - the 200 from the RP deal.

That totals 1380 gold, or 34 more immortal upgrades. In addition to the 15 we have now, that is one shy of 50.

Let's hope the first and second waves can make a big enough dent - and then we can swamp them with a steady stream of reinforcements. We shall see.

	09-04-2003 19:19									#24
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quote: The first city will no doubt be the one just south of the mountains from Dissidentville. But do we raze it? We need a foward base of some sort - and having use of the road network we would capture would be great - but it is very close to their capitol, far from ours, and would be surrounded on at least two - probably 3 sides by GS cities. That makes it ripe for cultural conversion back to GS. Which would be a disaster.

In my SP games I typically have a lot more culture than the AI civs so I don't worry much about conversion to them. It will be different here especially since this game has moved so fast and we have built few city improvements.

That first city is next to the mountain. There is a good chance it is on a hill. It would be a good place to defend. That would give us control of both ends of the mountain chain. We could use a base for healing our units and a launching point for further attacks. I don't want to raze all their cities but we may need to raze many of them that are close to their capital.

quote: So - Harry and Mo take out the warrior - and enter the mountains. The galley heads back - and in three turns can deposit two more Immortals onto the mountain chain. As warriors are upgraded in Dissidentville, we can get them to Iron Mountain in two turns, and then two galley moves to the mountains.

Just was I was thinking. How long would it take Elipolis to build another galley? It might come in handy.

quote: Does their capital still only have one chariot stationed there? If so, it IS a very tempting target..

Remember that it will take a while for our units to walk down to GS territory. That will give GS plenty of time to create chariots. The advantage of taking their capital is that is where most or all of their culture is. Taking it would put less cultural pressure on the other cities since its borders would no longer overlap them. With its high culture though it would likely want to flip back. If we take it early we will probably need to raze it. I would like to keep it and take it later.

	09-04-2003 20:24									#25
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quote: Originally posted by HarryH Just was I was thinking. How long would it take Elipolis to build another galley? It might come in handy.

Yup - I was working through some ideas last night on this. I will get some firm figures this evening.

quote: Remember that it will take a while for our units to walk down to GS territory. That will give GS plenty of time to create chariots. The advantage of taking their capital is that is where most or all of their culture is. Taking it would put less cultural pressure on the other cities since its borders would no longer overlap them. With its high culture though it would likely want to flip back. If we take it early we will probably need to raze it. I would like to keep it and take it later.

Agreed.

	09-04-2003 22:19									#26
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I am also thinking that we should atke Monsoon sooner than later. It is not a big city - but taking it - and not razing it would have a couple of advantages. First - less gold for GS. Second - it would give us that territory and the road network to use. Mobility is going to be key to us. And where it is situated, the other iron supply should fall within our boundaries when we take it. That will provide some measure of back-up for the current supply.

It should be fairly easy to take. With our main force pushing south - three second wave Immortals could do the job.

It is still far enough away from their capitol to minimze the chances of cultural conversion. It will also be free of their cultural boundaries as well. And I suspect it will grow to size two any turn now - so we should be able to get it intact.

	09-04-2003 22:58									#27
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Won't Monsoon be autorazed when we walk into it?

	10-04-2003 00:39									#28
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I think the key is to make sure it is a size 2 - this way it will not autoraze...unless, of course, if they have a temple built there, then it would have cultural points and not be autorazed - even at size 1....but I really doubt that GS would have wasted the energy in building a temple this early in the city's life.

Or, we can bring down a settler to resettle the site if we're worried about it being destroyed.

	10-04-2003 01:33									#29
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Shiber to GF :

quote: With 'they', I meant Vox was spitting in our face, not your team. Please don't rush to conclusions, I didn't mean to say that your team was dishonest; on the contrary - you've proven to be very fair and honest in our past dealings and I really respect you for that.

They just dont see it coming!

	10-04-2003 01:46									#30
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Yes, this is going to get nastier in the next few days. I can't wait for GoW forces to land in GS territory!
(When is GoW going to make their move?)

GS is confident that they will wipe us off the face of the map...I wonder how they are planning on going this?