10-04-2003 01:55									#31
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Guys! An observation!

You know that big 'mistake' we made earlier on building the two temples instead of granaries - well, it may be a blessing now. Shriber's post about all the things we, Vox, have done wrong got me thinking - and for the first time in ages I checked the score under the F8 tab - but for culture only.

We clearly have about twice the culture points as GS. And this is a major factor in cultural conversions of cities - and the propensity of cities to convert back to their previous owners. It may help offset the distance from capitol factor.

This may be very useful in the near future - and something we will need to keep in mind when we are deciding to raze or capture cities.

Last edited by Beta on 10-04-2003 at 02:06

	10-04-2003 02:58									#32
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I knew we were doing better in culture than GS. I had not looked at the histograph in a while to know how much better. I will see if I can find in the archive the info about how the conversion calculation is done. It would be nice to have so we can an idea of the chances of a conversion and make some educated guesses about razing. I remember the talk about what goes into determining a conversion but I do not remember if an actual formula was posted.

	10-04-2003 03:53									#33
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Got it here Harry. Culture Flipping Exposed. By a member of Firaxis. Great thread. I use it a lot.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...?threadid=39825

	10-04-2003 04:37									#34
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In the PTW (or is it just the latest patches), the flip formula has been a little modified in order to make garrisoning of units a more reliable way to fight the dreaded conversion.

	10-04-2003 04:56									#35
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Thanks. You saved me sometime searching for it. As I thought it talks about what goes into the calculation but there is no specific formula. A lot of people were guessing in the thread but no one except for maybe Soren know the real formula.

	10-04-2003 05:48									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Konquest02 In the PTW (or is it just the latest patches), the flip formula has been a little modified in order to make garrisoning of units a more reliable way to fight the dreaded conversion.

Oooh - I wasn't aware of that. Makes sense though. I remember some earlier SP games, where you would have a dozen units in the city and still lose it - and the units.

	10-04-2003 06:08									#37
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I remember the later changes. After wading through that thread I found a reference to this one:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=51715
which lead me to this one that has a couple of nice posts from Soren:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...ghlight=culture

	10-04-2003 20:04									#38
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Here is a pic showing the area around the GS capital. I marked the locations of four known cities and the potential area of there iron source based on Beta's intel. I filled in some terrain areas either because we can see part of the tile or based GS description of their land.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Ha...nvasion_x01.jpg

The arrows mark the invasion routes. More about this tonight. I need to get to work.

Kon, the eastern city I marked is one tile NW of the one you had in your pic based on an early view we had of the GS border that went around that mountain tip N of my site.

	10-04-2003 20:18									#39
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Right on, Harry. I think the four red dots should represent our initial objectives. I sincerely hope the iron is where you have suggested. We will find out soon enough.

Given the two advance routes - the one thing we will need to make sure of is that the timing is coordinated. I suspect they are putting a chariot counter-attack force together in double-quick time - and if the two advances proceed simultaneously - they can't be two places at once.

Oh - for a second galley.

	10-04-2003 22:36									#40
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Ok... Good point Harry. The way you have it there, we can cut the iron and then attack. I think we msut stick to mountains as much as possible, to avoid that chariot counter-attack they are preparing...

	11-04-2003 01:12									#41
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I agree with Beta, we need to make it so they can't put all their chariots in the same place

	11-04-2003 02:20									#42
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So - it looks like it is agreed. Harry's plan is the way to go. Two Immortal incursions - roughly on the path indicated - and timed as closely as we can.

The timing will be dictated by how long the main force takes to go up and through the mountains. The guys in the east will be exposed in the meantime - but I think GS is going to need some time to prepare.

And a small diversion of two or three troops to take Monsoon.

	11-04-2003 06:36									#43
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Sure. I'll go with that plan.

	11-04-2003 07:55									#44
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HOW BIG IS THE GS MILITARY?

AND WHAT DO WE HAVE GoW REPORT?

I went back and reviewed the saves for the last 1300 years. Here is what it shows. The first number is the date - then the size of our military (including galleys but excluding settlers and workers), and then what the mil. advisor indicated the strength of our military was relative to GS.

1990bc....6...average
1700bc....6...weak
1400bc....6...weak
1100bc....9...average
1075bc....9...average
1050bc...12...strong
1025bc...12...strong
1000bc...15...strong
0775bc...27...strong

Now, the quick conclusion is that their military is somewhere around 9 or 10. But they may have grown somewhat by then - and it may not be obvious as we have grown very quickly. However, it is safe to assume we have a numerical superiority now - as well as a strength superiority from Immortals. How long this will last when they kick their economy into full war production has yet to be seen. I still think they will be surprised by our numbers.

So - back over to the recent message from GoW, we probably have considerable leeway in 'undersizing' the reports of our army size for it still to be believable to GS. We should probably peg it around 17 to be safe. Then again - GS can also assume there are units up north that Ghengis did not see.

So - GS knows about 3 warriors and 2 spearmen and at least 3 immortals. Harry, Mo, and Eli.

We have Ghengis report - at least one spearman in Elipolis. Eli on the hill. 3 more Immortals on the road. 5 spearmen on the road. That is 16 units. Our galley makes 17, and any units up noth would add to it.

Sound OK?

	11-04-2003 08:22									#45
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Looks good to me. What does everyone else think?

	11-04-2003 13:35									#46
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I have been working on an original I dea but evveryone I come up with i check the thread and someone has already come up with this idea or this Idea has been shot down. i will keep working on a new and different way to aproct this, even if i sounds stupid.

	11-04-2003 19:12									#47
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I made a small change south of Dissidentville in the route of our main invasion force. The change keeps them out of GS site for one more turn so they have one less turn knowing what is coming.

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Ha...nvasion_x02.jpg

Sites 1, 2, and Hurricane are all next to mountains. We can attack them without threat of chariots.

Site 1 is the target of our main force. General Jon will proceed down the mountains to attack site 1. This city should be razed. With the closeness of the border from Eye and closely packed cities there will probably be many tiles in the cities radius that would still be under GS control. Throw in a couple of foreign nationals and a resistor or two and it will require way too many units to make the chance of flipping minimal. Razing it is a better bet. We can make use of the workers. Site 1 is in a very strategic position. It gives us command of the mountains and blocks the route to Monsoon. If you notice the roads around Monsoon are only in the flats next to the mountains. They have not put roads on the hills yet. Once we take Site 1 we have two choices. General Jon can follow the hills and forest over to Monsoon or our reinforcements from Dissidentville can come down the mountains and into the grasslands to attack Monsoon. The reinforcements would be at risk in the grasslands but if General Jon can maintain control of the site 1 location it would block GS from getting additional units to Monsoon. Another reason for maintaining control of site 1 is that once our road crosses the mountains south of Dissidentville it provides a route for GS to get chariots over the mountains. Site 1 will provide protection for both Monsoon and the road to Dissidentville. Once we have Monsoon, General Jon proceeds south following the hills and mountains to reveal the area and identify other targets.

On the east coast, Harry and Mo proceed down the mountains to review the terrain near Hurricane. If the GS iron source is over there we will need more forces, or good luck. Maybe both. Whether on a mountain or a hill the iron is connected by road so once our forces get on the iron tile chariots will be able to attack. Any swordsmen in the area will be able to attack us on the mountains. Our forces will have to survive one turn of what may be a massive attack before they can pillage the iron. It will be very costly. I am not sure we can do it. Even if we manage to pillage it our units will not be able to heal within their border. It will be just a matter of time before they take out our units. A flood of workers will be back in there to reconnect it. The pillaging will only buy us a few turns where GS is without iron. The other possibility is that we put enough forces on the east coast to attack Hurricane. I am not sure which one I like better. If Hurricane is on a hill or has walls it would be tough to take. Given the importance of Hurricane I suspect they will have plenty of defenders in the city and some offensive units to attack us as well. One possibility is that the east coast forces take site 2 and raze it, then keep enough units in the area to pose a threat without doing much to Hurricane. This will cause them to keep some forces in the area which means less forces for General Jon to deal with but it also lets them keep their iron.

The workers will build a road south of Dissidentville to point A. This will provide the shortest route for our reinforcements to enter the area.

In addition to providing protection for Monsoon and the road to Dissidentville, site 1 also provides a good gathering point for attacks heading south. If the site is on a hill it would be nice to put a fortress there, but that means we will need to have plenty of defenders who will need to absorb a few turns of repeated attacks before the fortress is completed. This will also delay us from moving south.

GS knows we are coming and they know it will be Immortals. I expect them to put more money into research to complete Feudalism. They can do it and complete it before we get our forces to any city sites. I expect that we will be facing pikeman. An Immortal against a fortified pikeman in a city on a hill does not look good. It gets worse if they build walls which they may do in their front line cities. After we get down there we will probably have about 12-14 turns before they complete Chivalry and we face knights. We need to work fast, it will cost us units, and we need that help from GoW.

I wonder how long after GS gets Feudalism we will be able to get it. It would be nice to have some pikemen to protect our forces and to use for pillaging the GS iron supply and keeping them from retaking it quickly. I suspect Lego and GS will trade Theology and Feudalism. I hope Lego does not make us wait to finish engineering before they send us Feudalism. In a trade for Feudalism I expect GS require the other civ to sign an agreement that will prevent them from either trading it at all or at least not trading it to us. We will have to wait and see how supportive the other civs truly are.

GS has a map of our territory. They know our iron is vulnerable. I expect them to find a way to launch and attack against our iron supply or to cut the road. We will need to keep a couple of Immortals in the area so they can respond quickly. Luckily we have a good view of the coast on both sides so we will have some warning of anything coming our way. We need to make sure we keep units in the mountains that can view the coasts as well as the desert in between.

	11-04-2003 19:15									#48
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Beta, don't be too forthcoming with unit numbers. GS will know is it BS. Make them get the reports from a third party so it looks more believable.

	11-04-2003 19:28									#49
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OK, now I see what is going on with the unit numbers.

	11-04-2003 20:31									#50
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Harry. I agree with everything proposed. One amended change would be the first move out of Dissidentville for our main force. If they move into the mountain tile - the GS warrior will see them. So - I propose the first step be the jungle tile. It will still be the same number of moves to get there. Perhaps a limited number of of Immortals - consistent with our fals report - should go the first route - and be seen. Again - a bit of misinformation.

I agree with you about the east coast. With Mo gone, it could turn into a real meat grinder for our Immortals - we do not have a quick way of re-inforcing them. But as Jon has said elsewhere, we need to take risks. And keeping their attention focused away from site 1 is a good thing.Just too bad we don't have a faster way of getting troops there.

I also concur about our iron supply and Dissidentville. With the new GS road, they can be in the mountains in a hurry. And then one tile from te city. Which in some respects would be welcome. I would love to catch one of their main forces moving next to a city filled with Immortals. It would be athing of beauty. But on the other hand, we would be fighting on our turf - not theirs, and that can never lead to victory. So - yes - let's be prepared. I think the constant flow of warriors down and being upgraded should work well as a mobile defence if needed. We may want to consider a spearman on the mountain 3-3 from D'ville.

And yes - your site 1 planning makes great sense.

GS gets feudalism in 3 turns - so we could be in for a bit of a fight. Then again - if they only had 12 units or so in their military - we will have killed 3, the warrior and spearman in and around monsoon make 5, so they can't have huge numbers to be instantly upgraded. This gets back to jon's point of having to make some serious hay early. And That means the four target cities you have identified.

So - great post! And we need a better east coast strategy. Or - do we leave it as the diversion - and make our dents from the west.

In some respects, I almost don't want them to lose their iron. I want them to go the costlier and lengthier route of pikemen and med infantry - as opposed to hordes of cheap chariots.

hmmm...

	11-04-2003 22:42									#51
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!!!GS can't build any more chariots!!!

if they are researching feudalism, it means they have discovered Horseback Riding. We'll still be facing 2/1/2 units, but at least, they will cost higher than the cheap chariots they could have produced...

Good news...

--Kon--
PS. Beta, I like your avatar... Makes you look even meaner!

	11-04-2003 22:55									#52
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Beta, I agree about the changes to the move out of Dissidentville. I did not see the new GS warrior location when I wrote that up. They moved the warrior to the coast so they can see any ships coming. Between units in the desert and city site 2 they have a view of the middle. I suspect they will be moving some units to the east mountains to keep a lookout on that coast.

Kon, you might want to check the upgrade path. I bet GS does not get horsemen. Their chariots most likely upgrade directly to knights. I can check this tonight if you want me to verify.

	11-04-2003 23:46									#53
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We should move two Immortals up the moutain with the spearman. If that warrior does not move one can take him out while the other moves to the other mountain where the spearman is overlooking the grassland. Then they can head east to meet up with the rest of the force.

	12-04-2003 01:09									#54
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I was thinking 3 or 4 to make Ghengis' report believable, but no two is good. It will look like we are moving units around piecemeal, and again, anything we can do to get GS to underestimate us is good.

It would be nice to find out about the upgrade path. It would be great if you were right Kon, but the chart I have shows a direct upgrade to knight. So I suspect they are still available.

	12-04-2003 01:13									#55
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do we get tech spoils when we take over cities?

I forget

Jon Miller

	12-04-2003 01:27									#56
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I dont think so.

	12-04-2003 01:38									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller do we get tech spoils when we take over cities? I forget Jon Miller

Do you mean like gold from their treasury?

	12-04-2003 01:40									#58
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no

like tech that they have

Jon Miller

	12-04-2003 15:31									#59
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No. There are no tech war spoils in Civ3.

	14-04-2003 08:03									#60
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We have six new Immortals in D'ville. What do we do with them?

I suggest we send one to iron mountain - to be picked up with either the other Immortal - or the spearman for transport to the east coast mountains. The other group- how about heading 2-3-3 and landing on the last road tile. They can then ride that into the tile presumably right next to the city. May be a bit of a suicide run, but if time with east coast moves, and moves from the larger group to their west - we may give them too many targets. Just a thought. Open to all and any ideas?