11-04-2003 05:46									#91
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I'm not sure the Iraqis have boasted the civilian casualties durng the war. I don't remember hearing of ridiculous amouts of dead people, even though I've seen quite qome images from the Iraqi propaganda in the French news.

	11-04-2003 05:51									#92
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quote: I've seen quite qome images from the Iraqi propaganda in the French news.

	11-04-2003 06:05									#93
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I think the distinction is made that targeting people for assassination under circumstances where you control, at least in theory, the territory in which they reside is "murder." The underlying assumption seems to be that one could arrest the targeted individuals, put them on trial and give them due process before executing them.

When the US targets an enemy leader, they are combatants directly involved in making decisions on the conduct of a war against the United States. As enemy combatants, they cannot be arrested or put on trial or given due process. Until they are captured, they are subject being killed by assassination.

Of course the problem here with Israel and the Palestinians is that Israel simply cannot make arrests of the targeted individuals -- or can they?

	11-04-2003 06:25									#94
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Az :

I assume it was part of the deal for French journalists : they could stay in Baghdad, bbut their channels had to show some Iraqi propaganda (this is pure assumption). Anyways, France2 showed much footage both from CNN and from the Iraqi TV, as well as their own footage.
Watching Iraqi propaganda was quite interesting, for the ministry of information's people didn't seem to uderstand their job : rather than calling to fight the vicious invaders from abroad / the decadent yanquis, they showed people eager to sacrifice themselves for Saddam Like he would have gathered more support with this old trick.

But I don't remember having seen the Iraqis boasting their civilian losses. I remember watching TV a few hours after the "decapitation" : CNN was reported to have reported 12 casualties, while IraqTV alledgedly reported 1 dead.

	11-04-2003 07:22									#95
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This whole thing is silly.

Eli, I don't know why are you being so angry over the US foreign office doing what foreign offices are meant to do.

As for the point itself - I think that much less than being hypocritical, the US were unaware of the absolute necessity of these methods, and are only slowly becoming more and more aware of it now, in Iraq and in Sept 11.

Btw, i would like to mention that the percentage of times we used air support in actions in urban environemnts is much much much lower than the US.

I think the US habits are infact much more protective of a US soldier, than IDF habits. I would assume that using US tactics, we would have bombed Jenin to the ground before sending there elite paratroopers.


And if you're wondering why Washington is employing Israeli tactics - it's because they had limited experience and tactics of urban combat and even less "luck" with regards to civilian casualties and collateral damage. This lead to Israeli military officials and former IDF Chief of Staff, now Minister of Defense, Shaul Mofaz to go to the Pentagon and submit files upon files of recommendations, strategies and tactics.

	11-04-2003 07:24									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Of course the problem here with Israel and the Palestinians is that Israel simply cannot make arrests of the targeted individuals -- or can they?

Why wouldn't they be able to?

	11-04-2003 08:07									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger Why wouldn't they be able to?

Cause they might go boom?

It's easy to say "just go in and arrest them". Practically, it isn't always that easy, and might end up causing a worse and uglier situation resulting in more deaths.
Particularily with snipers, suicide bombers and human shields being used.

Of course, Israel has done a lot of arreessting, too, from what I understand - but thats usually when they've gone in and have taken control of the location (and situation).

Hmm, maybe the US should have just simply arrested Saddam instead of targeting him?

	11-04-2003 08:16									#98
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It's stupid because, as the Israeli goverment is democratic, he's also expressing his opinion as to the proper course of action for his government.

	11-04-2003 08:22									#99
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker It's stupid because, as the Israeli goverment is democratic, he's also expressing his opinion as to the proper course of action for his government.

Just like the peace protesters do here in the US. So what? Is diversity of opinion a bad thing? Do we have to only think one thing and talk one way? Is that what democracy is about?

	11-04-2003 12:34									#100
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quote: Eli, I don't know why are you being so angry over the US foreign office doing what foreign offices are meant to do.

I fully understand the realpolitik behind this. It's obvious that before all this mess in Iraq the US had to calm down Arab members and try to appear neutral and it's obvious that now they realised that sometimes the tool of assasination has to be used.

I understand that, but I still have the full right to rant about it on public forums as much as I want.

	11-04-2003 13:40									#101
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quote: Why wouldn't they be able to?

ROTFLMAO

	11-04-2003 13:52									#102
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eli, i think the reason it was condemned was because the assasination doesnt HELP the situation youre in any more than him being dead. it will only make a martyr out of him and incite more violence.

	11-04-2003 14:13									#103
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Bla bla bla, repeating the same mantra all over again...

The facts on the ground are simple. Since the beginning of the Intifada at least two "generations" of terror leaders were liquidated, and every generation is less and less effective.

When the intifada started the regional leaders were 30-40 years old veteran terrorists from the PLO days, when they went boom their deputies took command. Now I hear at least every couple weeks that the leader of Hamas/IJ/Al-aqsa Martyrs in this or that city was killed.
And you know who are those people who are getting killed? They are inexperienced 20 years olds, at best. And their replacements are even worse.
The leading bomb engineers are long dead, the leading organizators are long dead, the leading recruiters of suicide bombers are long dead and the results can be seen.

Just compare the level of terror before Defensive Shield, where Israel brought the anti-terror fighting to a whole new level, and after.
Yes, they have successes, sometimes very painful ones, and their motivation might be higher. But the failure rate is enormous and the average "quality" of their attacks is very low.

Motivation, shmotvation. For me the only thing important is that in the last months it is possible to sanely live here without hearing about attacks twice per day.

	11-04-2003 14:14									#104
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Besides, wont killing Saddam make a martyr out of him and incite more violence?

	11-04-2003 14:19									#105
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do the people of iraq really love saddam? do palestinians really love the islamic jihad?

no, and maybe

	11-04-2003 14:21									#106
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quote: do the people of iraq really love saddam? do palestinians really love the islamic jihad? no, and maybe

On what do you base these answers?

	11-04-2003 14:23									#107
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i admit i have no idea on the islamic jihad but i think its a fair assesment to say there arent many people in iraq that liked saddam. from everything ive seen from all news sources the people of iraq seem to be happy with the toppling of saddam

	11-04-2003 14:40									#108
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quote: i admit i have no idea on the islamic jihad but i think its a fair assesment to say there arent many people in iraq that liked saddam. from everything ive seen from all news sources the people of iraq seem to be happy with the toppling of saddam

Tha depends on what you see.
I for example saw some French and Jordanian TV and got the oposite impression.

	11-04-2003 15:19									#109
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Edan - it's stupid there because he would be advocating a stupid policy, not because he would be advocating a different policy.

	11-04-2003 16:09									#110
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Edan - it's stupid there because he would be advocating a stupid policy, not because he would be advocating a different policy.

And what policy am I advocating?

	11-04-2003 16:17									#111
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Carry on the just struggle, Eli.

	11-04-2003 20:58									#112
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Yesterday in addition to the assasination of that IJ guy two more Tanzim terrorists were killed by undercover soldiers and 18 wanted men were arrested.
Did you hear about anything of that? No.

That's how people get the completely wrong impression that the only thing that Israel does is assasinations that kill tens of civilians as collateral damage.

	11-04-2003 22:46									#113
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Eli, criticizing the US because they are hypocritical in this instance is stupid because 9 times out of 10 our admin remains silent. The only times this isn't the case is when your assassinations screw up and kill alot of people or when they are badly timed, like in cooling off periods or say when there are delicate negotiations going on between moderate and militant palestinians to halt civilian attacks. At these times you create a huge mess for the US which we then have to clean up by giving you a little slap on the wrist. Big deal.

As for your image of the success in Israel's anti-terrorist strategies the picture that I see is continued terrorism no matter how effective, more and more money being requested from the US and no change in the existance of palestinians which is far more miserable then a guy in Tel Aviv who'd rather order pizza in then risk getting blown up(about the same chance he has of getting hit by a car).

I'm not discounting the effect of suicide bombings, just pointing out the hypocracy of demanding security at the cost of robbing others of any they might have had.

	11-04-2003 22:50									#114
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no hypocricy here. warfare. We all know very well that the palestinians have it much worse than we do, and we don't lie about it.

	12-04-2003 00:23									#115
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"Waaaaaaah the US isn't fair to us, waaaaah!"



Deal with it. Or choose a different ally.

-Arrian

	12-04-2003 00:24									#116
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Yes there is. Right-wing Israelis demand everybody recognize their right to absolute security without recognizing the palestinian right to any security whatsoever. I'm making no judgements here just illustrating hypocracy as its defined.

	12-04-2003 00:36									#117
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Eli, the reason I started posting here in the off-topic forum last year was that I was angered by the pro-Palestinian drift of president Bush. I now understand that he was trying to calm down the Israel-Palestinian issue because he had bigger fish to fry.

If you look at the bigger picture, you will see we are being hypocritical for a purpose. The US, and particularly, George Bush, are solidly behind ending terrorism where ever its ugly head appears.

Last edited by Ned on 12-04-2003 at 01:54

	12-04-2003 00:39									#118
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Are we still treating Eli's whining seriously or are we past that now?

	12-04-2003 00:41									#119
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Are we still treating Eli's whining seriously or are we past that now?

Why are you so jumpy suddenly? Paiktis got bored of you?

	12-04-2003 00:43									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Why are you so jumpy suddenly?

Not jumpy. Bored but slightly amused.