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Hurricane
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Arctic Hill
May 2001
time: 07:27
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@ Ming: overall, you are perfectly right. US must get lots of credit for not repeating the GW1 strategy of first bombing the **** out of Iraq before moving the ground troops in. But when we talk about the FF incidents, the US just can't agree they FUBAR'ed.
Last edited by Hurricane on 09-04-2003 at 21:24
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gunkulator
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I dunno Hurricane. What makes you so sure that the hotel attack is a FUBAR? Iraq has already shown little to no regard for how or where it carries out its attacks. Seems that attacking from a hotel filled with journalists is exactly the kind of thing they'd do. Surely more plausible than the US purposely targeting the hotel.
Another point to consider is that the US HAS acknowledge FF incidents as such. For the moment, we have to take their word that they are investigating. The Iraqis would have you believe that they've never ever done anything of the sort.
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gunkulator
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexnm
I wonder if we'll ever see the result of such investigations that they say they are doing all the time... |
I'm sure they will get done. The real question is, will you believe the results. I suspect that certain people here and elsewhere in the world have already made up their minds despite having nothing better than second hand info and web links.
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The Mad Monk
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of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:27
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Anyone see this yet?
quote:
Gilligan casts doubt on source of hotel attack
Ciar Byrne
Tuesday April 8, 2003
The BBC's defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan has cast doubt on whether the missile that killed two journalists in Baghdad today was fired by a US tank, speculating that Iraqi soldiers may have launched the lethal attack.
The US military has admitted one of its tanks fired on the Palestine Hotel, the centre for most of the foreign media in the Iraqi capital.
However, Gilligan said reports from central command in Qatar were starting to suggest US tank fire was not responsible for the deaths of Reuters cameraman Taras Protsyuk and Jose Couso, a cameraman with the Spanish TV network Telecinco.
Three other Reuters journalists and an Abu Dhabi TV staff member were injured when an explosion hit their room on the 15th floor of the hotel.
"I may be right in saying we're hearing from central command that they're starting to retract their apology for this incident," Gilligan told Radio 5 Live's drivetime show.
He added that after examining the scene he concluded it was virtually impossible for the US tank to have fired on the 15th floor room.
"I have to say I rather doubt it and, having been underneath it and looking up now just before it got dark at the hole again in the side of the hotel, I still doubt it.
"For a start the damage to the hotel is superficial, it's only the masonry that's been torn off in a very small area, a tank shell would have done more damage I feel.
"Secondly the angle that the tank would have to have reached to hit that roof, it would more or less have had to have shot just round the corner and I don't think even the Americans have got those kinds of weapons."
Gilligan said although American tank fire hit other parts of the hotel, it was possible an Iraqi attack was responsible for the journalists' deaths.
"Now the Americans have admitted they fired at the hotel. There was damage to other parts of the hotel.
"This was the main one the 15th floor room, where the two people were killed and three injured, but there was also damage to rooms on the 14th and 17th floors.
"Now that might have been the responsibility of the Americans.
"This might have been the responsibility of someone else, maybe some Saddam Fedayeen with a rocket-propelled grenade, who did not like the fact the Reuters guy was shooting footage from his balcony at the time of the attack.
"That is pure speculation. I just think there must still be some doubt over this area."
Earlier today the US army said it had fired at the hotel after coming under sniper attack.
It said the deaths were "unfortunate". General Buford Blount, the commander of the 3rd Infantry division, which is at the vanguard of the advance on Baghdad, said a tank was "receiving small arms fire and RPG fire from the hotel".
Later the US army said although journalists were on a "protected list" the military was "correct in returning fire" because of the real threat to their troops.
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http://media.guardian.co.uk/iraqand...,932481,00.html
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gunkulator
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quote:
Originally posted by Hurricane
@ gunkulator: it's not exactly like the US has a good record of putting their own soldiers on trial, even when they shoot other americans. |
Do you have evidence of this or is it just a feeling?
quote:
And really, how can you say the hotel attack was not a FUBAR? I hope you are joking. |
I'm fairly certain that the rules of engagement are: if you believe you are being attacked, shoot back. I can't imagine a scenario that would permit attackers a safe zone where they know the enemy will not retaliate.
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Bereta_Eder
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The US fired on the hotel.
There're on tape. They just (surprise surprise) didn't show it to you, in the US media.
A German reporter has the american tank turning its tournicet (sp?) slowly towards the hotel and firing effectively killing the journalists on tape.
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Bereta_Eder
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and of course on that very day they bombed 3 (three) news agency bases
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Bereta_Eder
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the organization "journalsist without frontiers" has said the US is deliberatly shooting at journalists, the international association for the protection of journalists has sent a letter to the US accusing it of violating geneva conventions and the EU has opened a full scale investigation.
if all that was a mistake (s) then it was a very very very freakish mistake (s)
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gunkulator
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I say bring on any investigation. However, like I said, it is abuntantly clear that most people have already made up their minds.
Honestly though, if the US really wanted to take out journalists or Russians or civilians, why use something as crude as a tank? An airstrike is far more effective.
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
The US fired on the hotel.
There're on tape. They just (surprise surprise) didn't show it to you, in the US media.
A German reporter has the american tank turning its tournicet (sp?) slowly towards the hotel and firing effectively killing the journalists on tape. |
??? what? that was all over the news last night - the tank turning and blasting the hotel. who didnt see it?!
but so what. those tank crews have been taking fire for weeks now. if I looked toward a hotel and saw someone leaning out with a rocket gernade... i would fire back - many times!
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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I'll just add those people who were killed just got got in some cross fire. nothing more. it's too bad indeed... but that's all. It will happen again before this is over.
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Bereta_Eder
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then you're not fighting material, you're a total inapt fighter, moron, killer and generally you're a war criminal (you already are anyway since you;re invading another country) only 2 times.
simple
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Bereta_Eder
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I hope a suicide bomber takes you out before you kill more innocent people, if you thinka and act like that and are a soldier.
better an invader deing than inocents, Im sure you'll agree
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Um, tell the folks in Tikrit, Kirkuk and Mosul that. Give it another couple of weeks. |
Clean up. Not fighting. One could possibly argue that there was never any REAL fighting. Oh a little bit here. There's a reason the US has less than 100 combat deaths. Heck, the US has killed more brits than Iraq... or it's close anyway.
Hey, where's all the folks who for years have said the US could never do this?????? Oh gulf 1 was luck... we'll get our butts kicked against slobo!! than it was against the afgans where Russia was beaten so the same will happen to the US. blah blah blah....
Oh no... I'm getting on a MWHC roll here. you got to admit, i've been pretty silent during this war (cleanup operation).
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Bereta_Eder
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yeah but 3000 were killed on 11 sept.
since this war is global, you've lost quite a few (if you want to put it like that)
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
then you're not fighting material, you're a total inapt fighter, moron, killer and generally you're a war criminal (you already are anyway since you;re invading another country) only 2 times.
simple |
you got that right! and i say lets keep going! about time someone (USA) cleans up the garbage in this world. and there is plenty left.
Iran... come on, we're talking only weeks - ok maybe a month or two. Syria - gezzz... two days.
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
yeah but 3000 were killed on 11 sept.
since this war is global, you've lost quite a few (if you want to put it like that) |
ok - that's my point! why should the US sit back and let that go?? It's not just afgans against the US. It seems many in this world dont care for us. I say - who cares!!? Bombs away!
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Bereta_Eder
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considering the peopel who will be killed in that clean up I only hope that something happens which will make you think again.
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
considering the peopel who will be killed in that clean up I only hope that something happens which will make you think again. |
and idea how many would die under saddam over the next year if he remained in power??? hmmmmmm??
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Bereta_Eder
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I sure as hell aint gonna get a scratch.
you otoh will die in large numbers.
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
I sure as hell aint gonna get a scratch.
you otoh will die in large numbers. |
you're sounding like that information dude in iraq. can't remember his name. 'US troops are not in the city!' ... US tank rolls by... opps!
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Bereta_Eder
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actually it was CNN that said us in airport,
iraqis celebrating at that very airport at the same time ooops again
bye bye USA...
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Bereta_Eder
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reall you're pretty much analgetic
and for 3000 who died in thw WTC?!
pl-uze, put some perspective
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09-04-2003 21:15
MWHC. 
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