09-04-2003 03:00									#1
	Official: Xanadu Boreholes Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

it has come to my attention that my inaction will lead to the destruction of a borehole near xanadu. that's because it was built without anyone's consent. however, this poll might be able to save it.

the red star is Xanadu. the green star is Cyclops. Blue squares boreholes which already exist or are soon to exist. Green already contains a (unconstitutional) borehole. Yellow would require lowering land.

I think i have the authority to make this poll as DIA, seeing as we have no aurillian governor ATM. also, drogue's poll about the consent of every governor is neither official, nor over, so i don't see that as a problem



you have 2 () days

	09-04-2003 03:04									#2
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now, reasons.

Green: should be allowed to be built because it is a perfectly good place for a borehole. I am aware that it is inside akirian territory, but Xanadu has every right to that tile that Cyclops has.

Yellow: If this passes, i'll only order it built if green fails. sure, there's a condensor there ATM, but with nutrient satelites, we don't need the 4 nutrients. the 6 minerals and energy would benefit Xanadu more.

	09-04-2003 03:38									#3
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Note I volunteered for spare Gov position. Aurillion will do nicely, thank you.

	09-04-2003 04:58									#4
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Just don't destroy any of the legal boreholes without polling it, those of us skimming profits from Aurillian Industry would be most displeased if that were to occur

	09-04-2003 06:03									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Hercules Note I volunteered for spare Gov position. Aurillion will do nicely, thank you.

welcome aboard, my good man. i believe you'll find the UN Pizza Deliverian governor office very comfortable indeed. You may want to have your staff search it thoroughly for bodies, however. Just ignore any large red buttons, especially in the 2nd drawer on the right of my desk, and anything incriminating you find can be mailed to me at

TKG
Central Internal Affairs Complex
74831 Atlantis Avenue
UN Marine Institute, Aurillion Province
T3R 3H8

just make sure you don't sell any of my robotic assembly plants to the Akirian government so they can turn the scrap metal into crowbars, eventually to be used to dismantle the poor defenceless Xanadu borehole

	09-04-2003 06:43									#6
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quote: Originally posted by TKG the poor defenceless Xanadu borehole

Save the boreholes!

	09-04-2003 13:54									#7
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Yes to both, I don't care which one wins (hell, I'd be happy if they were both built).

	09-04-2003 17:03									#8
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I'll let the yellow one through. But the Green one. Yes Xanadu has the same right, but so does Cyclops. Both should agree. I realise the poll is neither finished nor over, but it will be fcinished before this one, and there is a very strong show of feeling towards needing both. Furthermore, that borehole has not yet been destroyed, and will not be destroyed before this poll, to rebuild it, becomes obsolete, due to the constitutional timelimit. It will take one turnchat to order it's destruction, and therefore by the next it has passed the timelimit, and will need another poll. Therefore, this will need to be polled again nearer the time you want to build it. The yellow one, not being in Akiria, I have no ohbjection to. I don't want it, as pollution affects the whole Planet (let alone the whole faction) but I accept tha it is your right to put it there.

Do I take your admission of the unconstitutionalilty of the borehole to mean that you will not veto it's destruction?

	09-04-2003 17:06									#9
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Also. As Governor, I am able to post an official poll similar to my unofficial one, that will also pass before the turnchat which the destruction will take place.

This is a fun competition

	10-04-2003 00:11									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Furthermore, that borehole has not yet been destroyed, and will not be destroyed before this poll, to rebuild it, becomes obsolete, due to the constitutional timelimit. It will take one turnchat to order it's destruction, and therefore by the next it has passed the timelimit, and will need another poll. Therefore, this will need to be polled again nearer the time you want to build it.

nuh-uh! if it passes on this poll, it ceases to be unconstitutional.

quote: Do I take your admission of the unconstitutionalilty of the borehole to mean that you will not veto it's destruction?

i haven't decided yet. but no, i probably won't, thought it depends on the outcome of this poll.

	10-04-2003 00:14									#11
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No to both. Green because it was built on disputed Akirian-Aurillian territory, and yellow because I don't want to lower terrain.

Post 2999.

	10-04-2003 01:00									#12
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I Implore you to vote against the Green one. Vote for Yellow if you wish, but the Green one is in the base radius of Cyclops, an Akirian base. It is unconstitutional being there, and I think it is highly unfair to force it upon Akiria. Moreover, I intend to challange it's legitimacy in the courts, if needs be, as it was unconsitutional there.

Please, is it really that necessary. We have a borehole free region, and have had for the whole game, why spoil it so near the end. Os that borehole really necessary? there are 4 more around there, and how many does a base like Xanadu need?

	10-04-2003 01:14									#13
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A base can have 6 boreholes, but it's tricky to align properly... TKG wants Xan to have 6, so the trickyness gets taken out on Cyclops

	10-04-2003 02:09									#14
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Exactly It won't happen though. If I have to declare marshall law (didn't somebody already do that) then I will

	10-04-2003 03:12									#15
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The Secret Evil Aurillion Police could beat you in the martial law game, I'm afraid

	10-04-2003 05:12									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue It is unconstitutional being there, and I think it is highly unfair to force it upon Akiria. Moreover, I intend to challange it's legitimacy in the courts, if needs be, as it was unconsitutional there.

it won't be unconstitutional if this poll passes. but fine: go ahead and destroy it. if it passes in this poll, then i have every right to build a new one, and you have no case against me in court. if it fails, i won't complain if you want the planet buster the crap out of it

	10-04-2003 06:50									#17
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* Cedayon wonders just what would happen if one were to detonate a singularity planet buster at the bottom of a borehole *

Hmmmmmm...

	10-04-2003 10:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by TKG nuh-uh! if it passes on this poll, it ceases to be unconstitutional.

It does? How exactly?

Edit - Hm. I suppose I see your point here. Albeit as far as I know, constitutional disputes are meant to be solved by the court, not in polls. Nor is it up for the people to decide that closely on terraforming, at least on a casual basis. And we didn't poll the savegame mess a few weeks ago either did we?

	10-04-2003 12:17									#19
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The Constitution doesn't say that one should poll what save to use (it doesn't mention it all, which is why we had the problem in the first place), but ti does say to poll boreholes, which is why we're having a problem here. If it's approved in the poll, it ceases to be unconstitutional.

	10-04-2003 16:07									#20
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How so? It was unconstitutional when built, and thus needs to be destroyed. That is for the Judges to decide. Whether to rebuild it is for the Governor to decide. Moreover. why is this poll valid, since IIRC DIA's may not order terraforming, that is for Governors. Neither the Akirian nor the Aurillion Governor has said they wish this borehole yet.

	10-04-2003 16:12									#21
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quote: How so? It was unconstitutional when built, and thus needs to be destroyed.

But if it's approved in a poll, then it becomes constitutional, even if it is ex post facto. The only real alternative would be to first ear down the borehole and then drill a new one, which would be a pointless waste of time.

quote: Moreover. why is this poll valid, since IIRC DIA's may not order terraforming, that is for Governors.

I don't recall anything in the constitution that says who may poll about what.

quote: Neither the Akirian nor the Aurillion Governor has said they wish this borehole yet.

You do realize who the acting Govenror of Aurillion is, don't you?

	10-04-2003 16:39									#22
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus But if it's approved in a poll, then it becomes constitutional, even if it is ex post facto. The only real alternative would be to first ear down the borehole and then drill a new one, which would be a pointless waste of time.

Yes, but we it is unconstitutional. Yes it would be a waste of time, but that is the only constitutional outcome. That borehole should not be there, and so much be destroyed. If the Governor of Aurillion wishes to poll for a new one, then ok. Moreover, this poll is not to ratify it, it is to build a new one.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I don't recall anything in the constitution that says who may poll about what.

Well, it does say that:

quote: Governors: Have the rights and duties of: *Ordering the commissioner to: **move formers for his region

and nowehere does it say that the DIA may post orders for a Governor. The idea is that the Governor orders things, and the DIA ratifies them.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus You do realize who the acting Govenror of Aurillion is, don't you?

Yes. I also realise that you have failed for the last 2 or 3 days to post the election for the new Governor of Aurillion. If you wish to poll, then please do, but by the time of the next turnchat, Herc should be elected. Please post the election ASAP. I would hate to think that you have held this up purposfully to get this borehole through. Especially since the game should have been frozen until a new Governor is chosen, since you have taken over two positions. If I have to, I will ask for it to be frozen.

	10-04-2003 16:41									#23
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Um... as I posted in the governemnt thread, I haven't seen any post by Herc volunteering to be Govenror of Aurillion. Where did he state this?

	10-04-2003 16:43									#24
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quote: Yes, but we it is unconstitutional. Yes it would be a waste of time, but that is the only constitutional outcome. That borehole should not be there, and so much be destroyed. If the Governor of Aurillion wishes to poll for a new one, then ok. Moreover, this poll is not to ratify it, it is to build a new one.

The outcome is precisely the same, which is, IMO, what should matter.

quote: and nowehere does it say that the DIA may post orders for a Governor. The idea is that the Governor orders things, and the DIA ratifies them.

TKG isn't posting orders, he's posting polls.

	10-04-2003 16:45									#25
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In this very thread, page 1:

quote: Note I volunteered for spare Gov position. Aurillion will do nicely, thank you.

And in the Nomination thread he posted that he'd go for any spare position/Governorship.

	10-04-2003 16:51									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus The outcome is precisely the same, which is, IMO, what should matter.

But it isn't what matter. We must go by what the constitution says, and that says that that borehole is unconstitutional, and must be removed. I ordered it a while ago, and it has not been done. If you wish to rebuild it, that is a different issue.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus TKG isn't posting orders, he's posting polls.

Yes. But he may not post the orders. And if you have posted Herc's election, he would have been Governor by the time of the next turnchat, and so could decide not to build another one. Hence, if this poll goes through, I will ask for the game to freeze until the election has been finished, so that you do not have to have 2 positions at turnchat. Thus, before we have a turnchat, Herc will be Governor.

That borehole will be destroyed, and I intend to make sure that it is not rebuilt. If you want to rebuild it in a different place, then ok, but not in Cyclops base radius. All you need to do is move it.

	10-04-2003 16:52									#27
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If the borehole for the green area wins in this poll, it becomes constitutional, at least that is what it says in the constitution (source: GT in this thread ).

That's a simple fact. Even if the borehole *was* unconstitutional before, it would be impractical and downright ridiculous to destroy it and then build a new one just to fill the letter of the constitution. And this poll is a way for the DIA to seek ratification for the borehole. I see nothing wrong with this poll, as the right to decide is of the people in the end.

Edit - as you can see from the timestamps, this post does not cover the post by Drogue above - and I won't cover it until later, since I'm now going to watch some Evangelion.

Btw, could someone tell me how on earth chiron we ended up in this mess in the first place? Who exactly ordered the construction of an unconstitutional borehole?

	10-04-2003 16:55									#28
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quote: And in the Nomination thread he posted that he'd go for any spare position/Governorship.

I missed the one in this thread, and I saw no confirmation from him in the nominations thread as to what he was going to run for.
Election has been posted.

quote: Now, could someone tell me how on earth chiron we ended up in this mess in the first place? Who exactly ordered the construction of an unconstitutional borehole?

I beleive TKG gave orders that the borehole be constructed, which were later retracted due to it's losing the poll, but it was built anyway due to a mistake on my part (I don't actually recall building it, but it's not like I have a good enough memory to recall every one of the thousands of former actions I do each chat).

	10-04-2003 17:00									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia If the borehole for the green area wins in this poll, it becomes constitutional, at least that is what it says in the constitution (source: GT in this thread ).

No it doesn't. This poll is not to ratify an old borehole, it is to build a new one. Moreover, as in any RL legal case, it is whether it was constitutional at the time it happen that is the matter. There were different people then, it might not have won the poll. Even more, I asked for it's destruction and was overruled before this poll was even started. The fact I was overruled was unconstitutional, and should not have happened. I suggest your source becoems the constitution rather than the Alpha Talent

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia That's a simple fact. Even if the borehole *was* unconstitutional before, it would be impractical and downright ridiculous to destroy it and then build a new one just to fill the letter of the constitution. And this poll is a way for the DIA to seek ratification for the borehole. I see nothing wrong with this poll, as the right to decide is of the people in the end.

But we are the Peacekeepers, as it says, we rule by constitutiona, even though it is burocratic. Yes it would be impractical, but if that is what the constitution states, then that is what must happen.

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia Btw, could someone tell me how on earth chiron we ended up in this mess in the first place? Who exactly ordered the construction of an unconstitutional borehole?

Well, TKG claims not, thus it must have been either DBTS (IIRC he wa sthe previous Governor of Aurillion) or GT, as Commissioner, with TKG being DIA and thus letting it slide. If it was GT, that is another unconstitutionality, since not only was it not polled (orm was it defeated?) it was not ordered either.

	10-04-2003 17:05									#30
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I missed the one in this thread, and I saw no confirmation from him in the nominations thread as to what he was going to run for. Election has been posted.

Thank you. For those that wish to vote, the election is here.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus I beleive TKG gave orders that the borehole be constructed, which were later retracted due to it's losing the poll, but it was built anyway due to a mistake on my part (I don't actually recall building it, but it's not like I have a good enough memory to recall every one of the thousands of former actions I do each chat).

Thank you for the clarification. Why was it not removed the first time it was brought up though? I remember saying about it (although not ordering destruction, as I was not Akirian Governor at the time) quite some time ago.