10-04-2003 01:20									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I haven't lost anything. As I said in a thread awhile ago, once the war started, my only goal was to see it end as quickly as possible with as little loss of life as possible. It's not over yet, so I think celebration is very premature, especially since, as MtG pointed out, soldiers are still fighting and dying. And I don't feel like dancing over any war, frankly.

Well tell the people of Iraq to stop celebrating then. That's what this thread is about. And not withstanding your moral high ground some people do celebrate when they are freed from an oppresor. Of course Bill Clinton didn't start this war so I can see why you do not agree with it.

	10-04-2003 01:21									#182
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I don't know what was wrong with Boris' pic. I'd cheer too if I were them. I'm mean living under Stalin and all had to suck majorly.

	10-04-2003 01:21									#183
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quote: Maybe some people didn't like your comparison of US Troops to Nazis

I agree with Ming, that was very poor form. I didn't PM/notify anyone, but I could definitely see someone, especially any UK/US soldier/vet being greatly offended by that.

	10-04-2003 01:23									#184
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can we please give clinton a rest?

jeebus, he wasn't a great president or a good guy, but man, you can't pin everything on him.

you want to know why the world's in the fix it's in? not because of democrats, you republicans. not because of the republicans, you democrats. it's because of every single idiotic person who ever existed who thought that they were right and refused to listen to anyone else.

like most of the republicans and democrats today.

	10-04-2003 01:26									#185
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG quote: I imagine the strings will be very strong. I mean, what if the Iraqis decided to elect an Islamist government? even worse, can you imagine an iraqi goverment giving the oil contracts to the french?

Mon dieu!

	10-04-2003 01:28									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Well tell the people of Iraq to stop celebrating then. That's what this thread is about. And not withstanding your moral high ground some people do celebrate when they are freed from an oppresor. Of course Bill Clinton didn't start this war so I can see why you do not agree with it.

Don't worry Lincoln..if Clinto had gone about getting into this war like Georgie boy has, i would still opose it.

	10-04-2003 01:29									#187
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Well, Tikrit and Kirkuk are holdouts, the US is reinforcing the north, and Rumsfeld says the fight ain't over.

Baghdad is a nice show, but I'd like to see the substantive results.

Incidentally, for those who jumped up and down about Boris' post (and some know how much I little Yankee liberal Boris ), Generalmajor F.W. von Mellenthin and other German authors wrote quite extensively how many of the peoples "conquered" by the Germans originally welcomed the Army, but then turned against the occupation rapidly after the political types came in.

Obviously, we're not going to be anything like the Nazis, but it still doesn't take much before foreign "liberators" are viewed as despised oppressors. Has Najaf gotten it's water supply back? Most of the large Iraqi cities we passed through had major infrastructure loss and water supply loss. What condition are they in?

Even in areas we control, Iraqis are dying daily of indirect causes of the war and the regime, but with Saddam out of power, the focus on who to blame will rapidly shift to the current power.

Anybody want to go to Afghanistan today and take a public opinion survey on what they think of US "liberators?"

	10-04-2003 01:31									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln First we need to liberate the Democrats.

Please do. Start with Barbara Boxer, then give the rest of us billions in aid. We'll take good care of it.

	10-04-2003 01:31									#189
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The reaction of some people suggests that they're not happy at all with the freedom of the Iraqi people.

The sound like they wish these people would never have been freed.

I guess in 1945 we weren't allowed to be happy as well, since we lost many millions of people.
But my grandparents were happy! Not because they didn't care about the victims, but because they knew that soon no more new victims would die!

But I know it's hard for people to admit to have been wrong. But you guys can stick into your little world. I'm happy to have seen the iraqi people celebrating their freedom.

I care less about you guys getting real.

	10-04-2003 01:31									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Well tell the people of Iraq to stop celebrating then. That's what this thread is about. And not withstanding your moral high ground some people do celebrate when they are freed from an oppresor. Of course Bill Clinton didn't start this war so I can see why you do not agree with it.

Once again, another lame attempt to smear people you disagree with by using the "Clinton Bogeyman."

Tell me, o wise one, where hast I previously voiced any support for Clinton's military actions, hmmmm?

	10-04-2003 01:31									#191
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Don't worry Lincoln..if Clinton had gone about getting into this war like Georgie boy has, i would still opose it.

Why would you care about how it was done? I was under the impression that your opossition was more broad than that.

	10-04-2003 01:32									#192
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Don't worry Lincoln..if Clinto had gone about getting into this war like Georgie boy has, i would still opose it.

Anyway, I will be happy when the war is over (probably in a few days). I do not care for most politicians but I am happy that there is some good news now. I will not begrudge these people their celebration regardless of the motives of any politician.

	10-04-2003 01:32									#193
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Incidentally, for those who jumped up and down about Boris' post (and some know how much I little Yankee liberal Boris ), Generalmajor F.W. von Mellenthin and other German authors wrote quite extensively how many of the peoples "conquered" by the Germans originally welcomed the Army, but then turned against the occupation rapidly after the political types came in. Obviously, we're not going to be anything like the Nazis, but it still doesn't take much before foreign "liberators" are viewed as despised oppressors. Has Najaf gotten it's water supply back? Most of the large Iraqi cities we passed through had major infrastructure loss and water supply loss. What condition are they in?

At least someone gets it. Of course, it's MtG.

(And I wuv you two, dumplin! )

	10-04-2003 01:35									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Once again, another lame attempt to smear people you disagree with by using the "Clinton Bogeyman." Tell me, o wise one, where hast I previously voiced any support for Clinton's military actions, hmmmm?

You do a pretty good job of smearing yourself as your photo explains quite clearly. Look up your own record. I don't have time to wade through the pile at the moment.

	10-04-2003 01:37									#195
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Maybe if everyone in Baghdad parties really hard the remaining Iraqi soldier will give up because they would rather party than die...? That would be kwel.

	10-04-2003 01:39									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Maybe if everyone in Baghdad parties really hard the remaining Iraqi soldier will give up because they would rather party than die...? That would be kwel.

Then the US soldiers would join in and we could have the world's biggest conga line!

	10-04-2003 01:39									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln You do a pretty good job of smearing yourself as your photo explains quite clearly. Look up your own record. I don't have time to wade through the pile at the moment.

Concession accepted.


Anyway, how bad is the looting now in Basra, or were the Brits able to get it under control?

Curiously, British and American intelligence seem to be at totally at odds over Saddam's fate. The Brits say he lived, the CIA says he died. Considering the CIA said he died before, we should probably not hold our breaths...

	10-04-2003 01:40									#198
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Why would you care about how it was done? I was under the impression that your opossition was more broad than that.

Actually, how the president went about getting to this point, and how he plans to go froward from this point make up about 95% of my opposition to this little enterprise.

I am not one of those people that thought millions would die, neither did i expect iraqis to fight to hard for Saddam, nor do I think it was doen for oil. I said all of that countless times as we went to war.

I do think this admin. hooked the majority of the US to support this war with a lie (its about WMD and terrorist!) and becuase of it does not have a US public really prepared for what is to come. That is why if idn this thread so silly: the job is not over, the hard part, which will be slow, and unglamarous, and won;t be on TV 24 hours a day, specially once all the reporters come home, is just a few days from getting satrted, not finished.

And fundamentally, when i see this admin. making snide side comments about Syria, or how this ia a model for future action I worry deeply. I don;t buy the Wolfowitz theory of the world and see great dangers in it.

So you are right DD, my opposition is deep, because I do think how you get there and how you move on from there are as important as what "there" is.

	10-04-2003 01:43									#199
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Well Boris, I admit that it is not all roses and kisses in Iraq. But surely you can see a ray of hope for these people now that Saddam has been deposed? I am trying to understand the liberal mindset. Do you see any good in this liberation or is this just a staged event?

	10-04-2003 01:45									#200
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy But I know it's hard for people to admit to have been wrong. But you guys can stick into your little world. I'm happy to have seen the iraqi people celebrating their freedom. I care less about you guys getting real.

And what do we have to admit being wrong about? Yes, some people made dire predictions of a botched military campaign, but most of us expected the war to go as it did--a pretty swift victory with not a whole lot of coalition casualties.

The war victory in no way shows us "wrong" in our opposition to the war. Further, we've yet to see ANY evidence of the much-vaunted WoMD, which you will recall were the REASON for the war.

So will you issue your own apology should none be found and that reason be proven a lie?

	10-04-2003 01:46									#201
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Conga Across Iraq... C.I.A.?


The liberation is just an excuse to PARTY! No good will come from it, just like putting a man on the moon.

	10-04-2003 01:49									#202
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GePap: Mea Culpa. I was under the impression that you didn't believe Iraq to be a serious threat and could be dealt with via containment.
Now that I think about it. You probably dealt with that in your "lie" comment.

	10-04-2003 01:52									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Well Boris, I admit that it is not all roses and kisses in Iraq. But surely you can see a ray of hope for these people now that Saddam has been deposed? I am trying to understand the liberal mindset. Do you see any good in this liberation or is this just a staged event?

The question is how long it will last. People in Teheran surely danced when the evil Savak and the other symbols of decades of the Sha's tyranny came down, and hell, they came down by Iranina hands. The goevrnment that replaced the Shah is still there, now labeled part of the "axis of evil".

People also danced in Havana when Batista left..and ditto "now enemy of the US".

So the question is: in five years, will Iraqis have a free press and prosperity, or just have another authoritarian regime? The answer to that question, or better yet, the process that will lead to that answer is about to begin. So thinking the end is here is silly..as I said, an end has come, but thus a beginning as well.

	10-04-2003 01:53									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Well Boris, I admit that it is not all roses and kisses in Iraq. But surely you can see a ray of hope for these people now that Saddam has been deposed? I am trying to understand the liberal mindset. Do you see any good in this liberation or is this just a staged event?

I was happy to see the children freed from jails, as well as to see the political prisoners freed. Who could complain about that?

I will be happy when we can prove Hussein dead or he is captured. I would rather see him captured and put on trial at the Hague (although given their botching of the Milosovic trial, perhaps not...), but his being gone one way or the other is certainly a positive thing, just because he is a rat bastard.

Once the war started, getting Saddam became a non-issue for me, as the dye was cast and swift victory meant removing/debilitating him ASAP.

But none of that changes my general opposition to the war, the way it was started and for what ostensible reasons. None of that changes my belief that Iraq is going to teeter on a very dangerous edge for a long time, and its future is by no means secured. None of that changes my belief that we have just seriously wounded our international reputation and created an entirely new level of resentment towards the United States, and the repurcussions will be felt for a long time through a lot of grief.

In short, dance now if you must, but I believe we will pay a severe price later.

	10-04-2003 01:53									#205
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Now that I think about it. You probably dealt with that in your "lie" comment.

and Bingo was his name-o.

	10-04-2003 01:59									#206
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Well at least we agree Boris that the true test is yet to come. We will have to wait and see.

	10-04-2003 02:08									#207
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I will not celebrate until they dance in the streets of Tikrit and Mosul. Those cities are Saddam-land, which the south isn't. The coalition forces have not even entered the dragons lair yet...

	10-04-2003 02:11									#208
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If I lived in those cities I would be long gone...

	10-04-2003 02:16									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre I will not celebrate until they dance in the streets of Tikrit and Mosul. Those cities are Saddam-land, which the south isn't. The coalition forces have not even entered the dragons lair yet...

I wouldn't expect much more fighting for now. They would be smarter just to let the US in and sit tight for the aftermath. Why get killed today when you can still have a chance to get what you want later?

	10-04-2003 02:19									#210
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Pattycakes,Curtsibling,Micheal The Great,Gepap,Boris,MarkG,and others.

Sorry we won--better luck next time huh?

Maybe your despot/terrorist of choice will beat the USA next time then YOU folks can dance in the streets.

Today is the Iraqis and coalitions time.