12-04-2003 02:10									#481
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 The US is obligated to take over police duties immediately, instead they have orders to stand down and ignore much of the looting.

the US doesnt want to appear to be heavy handed... by imposing law and order, it would bring the reality of us being an occupier, albeit temporary, to their attention, and could start dissent from the Iraqi street.

Right now we are treating them like a parent would treat their 2 year old child if they were 8 feet tall and could lift a car...

	12-04-2003 02:23									#482
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Good plan.
This time between running off Hussein, and the Coalition leaving, is the most sensitive.
Help as needed, and wanted.

	12-04-2003 02:36									#483
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Ned, even if as you say, the looting has only been contained to government building and Baath party residences it is not the PEOPLE taken back what has been stolen. It is criminals who happen to be lucky enough to live in the vicinity of these buildings. Wouldn't it be far better if these resources were confiscated and invested in the WHOLE of Iraq to benefit ALL the people.

Gsmoove, I have he feeling that if I were in Iraq and was treated as the average Iraqi was treated his entire life by Saddam and the Baath part; even while the Baath party lived in opulence beyond compare or belief; I would be among the people taking everything I could from those b*stards and burning down every edifice of their power that I could find.

I am also not surprised at the lynchings and murders of Baath party members or the murder of a pro-Saddam cleric.

The anger against Saddam is very deep.

	12-04-2003 02:38									#484
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Great plan for bringing stability to the region. And for seeing Bush out of office the next time around, thank God(though I certainly wouldn't prefer a Lieberman).

	12-04-2003 02:41									#485
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Ned, its been shown all over that it isn't only these places being targeted. Its just lawlessness and as damaging to the Iraqi people as the Baath party or Saddam if its not stopped soon.

	12-04-2003 02:42									#486
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Let them burn those party offices.

US Army should stand aside and observe. Let the frustration be taken out on those offices and not their soldiers, its a delicate situation as it is without any confrontations with the local population.

I totally agree with Ned.

	12-04-2003 02:56									#487
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quote: Originally posted by gsmoove23 Great plan for bringing stability to the region. And for seeing Bush out of office the next time around, thank God(though I certainly wouldn't prefer a Lieberman).

Yes, why doesnt the US impose martial law and shoot those caught after curfew on sight? We'd win over the Iraqi hearts and minds in no time...

	12-04-2003 02:57									#488
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My point is that it is much easier said than done... the US must be savvy and graceful, we cannot appear to be heavy handed when we do try to restore Law and order

	12-04-2003 02:59									#489
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Kramerman is right.
The thing is that at some given time this must be done.
Many of these people looting are common criminals BTW, came from other places.
The Brits took some chances and indeed shot 5 people down. (who were trying to steal grain - again).

	12-04-2003 03:16									#490
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There is a solution however.

People need to be fed and have water. This is the first task.

To do that there need to be 2 things:

calm so that humanitarian missions can finally go into these towns more promtply.

no more looting of basic necessities like food or medecins.


The people of Iraq don't care if someone's been stealing some desks from a gov. building.

But they do care about the thieves of basic needs, such as is grain.

These thieves can be effectively stopped with the population agreeing.


And then there needs to be some short of calm to get the humanitarian missions in and try and get Iraq's remaining functionality back on its feet.

It is a monumental task, but that's what you get for getting in if you care, of course.

First need is food and water of course. For big cities.

	12-04-2003 03:22									#491
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Hmmm... I have to agree with paiktis22... weird...

	12-04-2003 03:22									#492
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 There is a solution however. People need to be fed and have water. This is the first task. To do that there need to be 2 things: calm so that humanitarian missions can finally go into these towns more promtply. no more looting of basic necessities like food or medecins. The people of Iraq don't care if someone's been stealing some desks from a gov. building. But they do care about the thieves of basic needs, such as is grain. These thieves can be effectively stopped with the population agreeing. And then there needs to be some short of calm to get the humanitarian missions in and try and get Iraq's remaining functionality back on its feet. It is a monumental task, but that's what you get for getting in if you care, of course. First need is food and water of course. For big cities.

hmm, a non troll post ... who are you and what have you done with Paiktis?

	12-04-2003 03:23									#493
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Hmmm... I have to agree with paiktis22... weird...

thats what i say...

	12-04-2003 03:26									#494
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Yes, why doesnt the US impose martial law and shoot those caught after curfew on sight? We'd win over the Iraqi hearts and minds in no time...

Actually, we can just detain looters and give them the choice of being turned over to locals for a little tribal law, or to the Imami for a little Sharia law.

I'm sure the Iraqis are quite able to handle the disposition of looters of things like medical supplies and food, or what little property common people may have, while looking the other way at borrowing a sofa from the local Baath headquarters.

	12-04-2003 03:32									#495
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paiktis, a most sensible post. As well, responsible governments are already volunteering police. I hope we take them up on it.

"For the time being though, its Canada and Denmark who have volunteered to send their policemen to help restore law and order in lawless Iraq.

Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien said on Friday that if the need be felt, the country would be open to sending members of its mounted police to Iraq. Canada had earlier sent its Mounties to trouble-torn cities like Kosovo for enforcing order.

“If it is the contribution we can make, we will do it,” said the prime minister. Canadian solicitor-general Wyne Easter, in charge of law enforcement, has already begun discussions with government officials in anticipation of a request for lending the country’s police to Iraq. “We are committed to doing whatever we can to ensure Iraqi people have as much security and safety as we do in our cities,” he said."

http://english.aljazeera.net/topics...7&parent_id=258

It looks like Canada just joined the coalition.

	12-04-2003 03:41									#496
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman hmm, a non troll post ... who are you and what have you done with Paiktis?

Well I for one am not going to hope that the whole place goes up in flames just to have "the US proven wrong".

While I have strong reservations about the US and the West in general genuine motives and hope the place doesn't end up with a new dictator or some 1.00o ultra rich people and visiting westerners enjoying all the lux while the rest of the people live in poverty, I think the fact that there wasn't a resistance in Bagdat (by the people) and that the whole thing ended so quickly, I perceive that as a rare blessing.

Besides miden kako amiges kalou. There is no bad "thing" that is utterly devoid of good.

The good in this situation would be to really help those people get a better life. If there's something to be done about it I hope as many countries who can contribute.

	12-04-2003 03:54									#497
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quote: Actually, we can just detain looters and give them the choice of being turned over to locals for a little tribal law, or to the Imami for a little Sharia law.

Yes, i figured as much, but the trick is detaining them. Some may heed to soldiers brandashing M-16s and SAWs, but those that dont will be shot... and that is all that is needed to start it... "THE AMERICANS KILLED MY [Insert relation here]!!! THEY ARE HERE TO KILL US< NOT LIBERATE US!!! KILL THE AMERICANS!!! KILL THEM!!! KILL THEM!!!"... or somethn to that affect. soon we would have civilians throwing rocks at us and poping occaonal shots.. it ould then probably escalate into a full scale infatida or somethn... or at lest this is a fear of mine.

	12-04-2003 03:56									#498
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we need to get non lethal weapons in there... like these humvees i was reading about that shoots a ray of microwaves to burn the skin in an intense, but brief second, or those British riot patrol guns that shoot batons, adn other stuff of the like. Good old fassioned riot gear and billy clubs may also be necessary

	12-04-2003 04:01									#499
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Hmmm... a few pages back, I was looking forward to closing this thread... But something weird happened...

An actual discussion occured

While I know there are a few post short of 500... Lancer has already started Part II.

I only hope that a "discussion" continues there

http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...?threadid=83307