11-04-2003 03:33									#31
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1. How old is the Universe?

20 gigayears.

2. How old is the Earth?

4.6 gigayears.

3. How old is life?

Earth life? 3.8 gigayears.

4. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?

Yes, in Winnipeg in 1997.

5. Was there one Ice Age or more? When?

Dozens and dozens.

2.8 gigayears ago, 2.2 gigayears ago, and 2.0 gigayears ago there were really big ones.

There were a few small ones in the last 20 megayears.

	11-04-2003 03:36									#32
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I know sea levels have been higher in the past, but I wouldn't think the entire Earth was covered.

Well, at one point around 4.3 gigayears ago the world's oceans precipitated from the atmosphere. Of course, that was before the formation of life, so an Arc that held two of every lifeform (even those that reproduce asexually) would have been rather empty.

	11-04-2003 03:47									#33
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What RJ said... ( )

	11-04-2003 03:50									#34
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I'll sum my answers up in one sentence: Creationism is blatantly false, and the existance of God is subject to Occam's Razor: whether or not it is true has no discernable effect, and therefore can be said to be untrue.

	11-04-2003 04:00									#35
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wow you're like a genius or something, disproving the existance of god in a 3 line post...

	11-04-2003 04:00									#36
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I'm not the best to speak for the creationists, but I do qualify as your poll target.

1. How old is the Universe?

13.5 billion years according to the latest estimate by astronomers. I interpret six days as six eons, one of two possible interpretations of the hebrew word for day used.

2. How old is the Earth?

4.5 billion years according to radiocarbon dating of our oldest rocks. Again, interpreting days as eons allows me to use the scientific definition.

3. How old is life?

What do you mean by life? Single-celled organisms?
We don't know, because we have not found evidence of life on other planets. Life on earth, the best estimates are several billion years.

4. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?

Probably around 6000 years ago, by the biblical records and other middle eastern epics such as Gilgamesh.

Whether the flood was worldwide or not, I honestly don't know. There are good arguments for both sides.

5. Was there one Ice Age or more? When?

Nothing in the Bible to contradict scientific evidence for Ice Ages, so I'll go with the geological evidence. I'm not sure why you ascribe this to creationism.

You also need to have 6.

When do you believe human life begins? Science appends millions of years according to fossil evidence. I'm not sure we can place a specific date on Adam and Eve in the Garden, so I'll go with the current scientific evidence.

	11-04-2003 04:04									#37
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Whether the flood was worldwide or not, I honestly don't know. There are good arguments for both sides.

What is the good argument for the flood being worldwide? If it was 6000 years ago, no way, no how.

	11-04-2003 04:15									#38
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Boris:

If the flood were local, there would be other groups in existence.

Gen 7:22

Every living thing that moved on the earth perished-birds, livestock, wild animals, all the creatures that swarm over the earth, and all mankind.

Genesis 6:5-8

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."

The key hinges on the interpretation of earth as applying to the whole world or to part. Of this I am not sure.

	11-04-2003 04:35									#39
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I think Boris was looking for a shred of scientific proof that there could have been a global flood. You seem to subscribe to the scientific notions of carbon dating and, I'll assume, geology. Since the only way to believe in a global flood is to completely ignore the fact there is no geological evidence of such, to say nothing of uninterupted evidence of civilzations in other parts of the world during that time frame, any argument would rest on complete blind faith. I'm not sure that would be classified as a "good" argument.

	11-04-2003 04:41									#40
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Stories of floods are common throughout societies, as far from the Levant as China and the polynesian islands.

	11-04-2003 05:19									#41
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Stories of fires are common throughout societies. Ergo, there was a global Inferno.

	11-04-2003 06:08									#42
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St Leo:

there's no repeated stories of global fires... there are, however, repeated stories of global floods. There must have been some kind of significant flooding 10K years ago probably at the end of the last ice age when sea levels rose considerably... The mediterrenean, for example, was much smaller... Italy and Spain were attached to north africa and Greece to Anatolia until the end of the ice age


thanks

	11-04-2003 06:20									#43
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1. How old is the Universe?

Estimations range between 18 to 37 billion years old(I think ~ 28'sh myself)





2. How old is the Earth?

8.3 billion years old(give or take 1 or 200 hundred million)





3. How old is life?

We keep finding evidence of life further and further back....new evidence shows that the earliest "life" might have arrisen while the surface was still cooling........~7.4 billion years ago.



4. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?

A sea wall broke on the caspian sea, flooding much of the region and creating the black sea.......estimations are fuzzy but humans were around then-was tramatic to people in the region but was FAR from a global event-it was localized.


5. Was there one Ice Age or more? When?

Multiple ice-ages, we may be in one now during a warm spell......





Im a theistic creationalist........IF God is up there he had a hand in creation but the universe runs by science and evolution is real(I look down my nose at creationalist and think faith is the embrace of ignorance).

	11-04-2003 06:28									#44
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8.3 billion year old earth and life 7 billion years old? Isn't that a bit too old? I thought scientists are roughly agreed that earth was at least 4 billion years old, based on a rock that was that old or what not. Where you get 8.3 billion from?


thanks

	11-04-2003 06:32									#45
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The universe was created on July 5, 1868 at 10:13 pm... no one alive can disprove this and all evidence to the contrary (ie- bones, buildings, etc) were fabrications created and set in place on that day.

disprove me

	11-04-2003 06:59									#46
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Kontiki:

quote: I think Boris was looking for a shred of scientific proof that there could have been a global flood. You seem to subscribe to the scientific notions of carbon dating and, I'll assume, geology.

Most people subscribing to a world-wide flood don't base their arguments on the prevailing scientific theories.

Boris asked for a persuasive argument, and those passages are the ones that cause problems for the local flood interpretation.

AS:
Interesting, but I'm not sure that accounts for a worldwide flood. Local flood for sure, but global?

	11-04-2003 07:04									#47
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Obiwan:

Scientists know the best about the flooding in the Mediterenean because there has been archaelogy and research done in that area for centuries. The melting of the ice caps had global effect and it is almost definite that if flooding occured in the mediterenean, it also occured everywhere else in the world. Not any world-wide flood that would engulf the land but significant flooding throughout all coastal areas


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	11-04-2003 07:13									#48
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Albert:

quote: Not any world-wide flood that would engulf the land but significant flooding throughout all coastal areas

Then you defend a local flood event, unlike passages such as this:

Gen 7:20-21
They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.

	11-04-2003 07:15									#49
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I'll sum my answers up in one sentence: Creationism is blatantly false, and the existance of God is subject to Occam's Razor: whether or not it is true has no discernable effect, and therefore can be said to be untrue.

You don't know what occam's razor means, dude. It does not speak of certainties or absolutes. It simply says that the simpler explanation is more likely to be true. It doesn't say that it is.

Anyways, isn't CyberShy a creationist as well?

And guys, the most recent astronomical data shows the Universe (as we know it) to be roughly 14.7 billion years old. We recently got a very accurate picture.

	11-04-2003 07:19									#50
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Obi-wan:

the other thing to note is that the flooding off the melting of the ice caps would not occur all at once as Genesis seems to indicate (unless you figure that the 40 days and 40 nights represents even longer as the number 40 usually does in the bible) but gradually over several years but still noticable to anyone living along the coast.

neverthless, the Aegean sea area once being mostly land and then becoming a sea in a matter of a few years (and the same sort of thing occuring all over the world) would appear to be significant flooding. Enough to do considerable damage to Neolithic settlements and alter the ways of life of many peoples


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	11-04-2003 07:25									#51
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it should be noted that before the Ice Age, the Sahara and the middle east were forests... vast climatic changes occured with the end of the ice age. Considering how information can be amazingly passed down in oral traditions, pre-bronze age Sumerians and what not no doubt heard about how life was only a few hundred years before and probably figured there was an attempted end of the world and that they were living in the remnants of that world.

	11-04-2003 07:28									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen 1. How old is the Universe? Estimations range between 18 to 37 billion years old(I think ~ 28'sh myself) 2. How old is the Earth? 8.3 billion years old(give or take 1 or 200 hundred million)

You're 20% to 115% too high on your first figure and 70% too high on your second.

14 billion is the most recent estimate, IIRC (as of a month ago) and 4.5 for the earth.

	11-04-2003 07:29									#53
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Albert: Then you defend a local flood event, unlike passages such as this: Gen 7:20-21 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.

How do they know it was more than 20 feet? Maybe it was only more than 15, or more than 50. Was Noah out there doing scientific measurements?

Just wondering.

	11-04-2003 07:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Albert: Then you defend a local flood event, unlike passages such as this: Gen 7:20-21 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.

There's not enough water on the earth to do this (not by a long shot)

Where did it all go?

	11-04-2003 07:32									#55
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them."

Do Christians' have to write the LORD's name in all caps? Is it the same thing with GOD? And why don't they write THE LORD, or at least The LORD, instead of just The Lord? And will I go to hell if I use all lower case when writing the lord, or god?

	11-04-2003 08:03									#56
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Gen 7:20-21 They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered. The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.

Okay. Since Mount Everest is more than 8800 meters tall, that had to be a lot of water.

That naturally prompted these two questions:

1. Where did the water come from?
2. Where did it all go?

	11-04-2003 08:08									#57
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Yes, I do. Occam's razor says that if something's existance is irrelevent, it can be said not to exist.

	11-04-2003 09:15									#58
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It can be said not to exist for sake of argument, doesn't mean it doesn't physically exist. And determining what is irrelavent is rather difficult, actually.

Note that I do not believe in God, so I do agree with you, but just don't speak in such absolutes. It doesn't make you look good. People tend not to want to agree with people that speak in absolutes, so you're not gonna get your point across very well that way.

	11-04-2003 09:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Genesis 6:5-8 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth-men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air-for I am grieved that I have made them." The key hinges on the interpretation of earth as applying to the whole world or to part. Of this I am not sure.

So close, now how about Gen 6:4 and Num 13:33? There were survivors of the Flood in that area. Certainly people and animals around the Globe survived whatever happened in Noah's part of the world.

Strict creationists just boggle my mind. Yeah, the world is full of evil when everyone's a vegetarian. Lets start all over and now let all the animals kill and eat each other and it will be much better. And what, God's pissed he made a mistake? What kind of omnipotent, omniscient God is that?

	11-04-2003 09:33									#60
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Most people subscribing to a world-wide flood don't base their arguments on the prevailing scientific theories.

Bingo.

A world-wide flood is simply an impossibility, as there does not exist enough water to raise to the levels described in the Bible. A literal interpretation is impossible on many levels, as the amount of water described descending in a mere 40 days and nights would also have been an impossibility, not to mention it would have left buttloads of evidence, and yet none exists for it.