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MRT144
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Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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aparently boris has never watched water world
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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Tingkai:
quote:
Do Christians' have to write the LORD's name in all caps? Is it the same thing with GOD? And why don't they write THE LORD, or at least The LORD, instead of just The Lord? And will I go to hell if I use all lower case when writing the lord, or god?
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Good question, I'm glad you asked.
The Lord = Christ
The LORD = YHWH
This is the reason for the naming convention used by the NIV to distinguish between terms.
If you read the original languages, there will be no need to distinguish between Lord and LORD because there will be two different words.
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How do they know it was more than 20 feet? Maybe it was only more than 15, or more than 50. Was Noah out there doing scientific measurements?
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The same way they used to do soundings before we had sonar, by attaching a weight to rope, and letting the rope go until you hit bottom. Wind up the rope, and there you go, a sounding measurement for the depth of the water.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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Thanks Cybershy for responding to Boris' questions.
Frogman:
quote:
So close, now how about Gen 6:4 and Num 13:33? There were survivors of the Flood in that area. Certainly people and animals around the Globe survived whatever happened in Noah's part of the world.
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Genesis 6:4
"The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown."
Before the flood they existed, but what of after?
In context:
Numbers 31-33
"But the men who had gone up with him said, 'We can't attack those people; they are stronger than we are.' And they spread among the Israelites a bad report about the land they had explored. They said, "The land we explored devours those living in it. All the people we saw there are of great size. We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them." '
Did the Nephilim survive the flood? No. The people of great size resembled the Nephilim in stature. The scouts reported falsely out of fear and lack of trust in God. Their sin caused Israel to wander in the desert for 40 years rather than entering Canaan.
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Strict creationists just boggle my mind. Yeah, the world is full of evil when everyone's a vegetarian.
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Why not? Isn't eating meat delicious? 
quote:
And what, God's pissed he made a mistake? What kind of omnipotent, omniscient God is that?
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Man sinned, prompting God to grieve and consider the complete destruction of humanity. Do you blame God for creating man in the first place Frogman?
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Rogan Josh
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quote:
Originally posted by skywalker
I'll sum my answers up in one sentence: Creationism is blatantly false, and the existance of God is subject to Occam's Razor: whether or not it is true has no discernable effect, and therefore can be said to be untrue. |
Occam's Razor doesn't work on that level. It is more for the case when you have two theories which both perfectly well explain the data: the theory with 2 parameters is more likely to be true than the one with 10.
But in more complex cases you get into trouble with 'simpler'.
For example, then model building in particle physics, it is much much much simpler to assume that the couplings in the theory are real numbers (rather than complex numbers). Usually these models are pretty good at describing physics at the modern generation of particle colliders (with some exceptions). But real parameters means no CP-violation, so the number of anti-particles is conserved and you can't explain why the universe is made up of matter rather than antimatter.
The same flaw holds for supersymmetry. The Minimal Supersymmetric Standard Model is a lot more complicated than the non-sypersymmetric one, but most physicists think the world is supersymmetric. One could argue that supersymmetry is 'simpler' since it is more aesthetically pleasing to some., but then we are really questioning the definition of 'simpler'.
I would, in the same spirit, claim that a universe with God is 'simpler' than one without, so by Occam's Razor, God must exist.
A flawed argument I think.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
there's no repeated stories of global fires... there are, however, repeated stories of global floods. |
Is that true? I heard it said many times, but is it really true?
I know of some Chinese stories that involve floods, but no legends of any great flood that covered all of the land. Mind you, I don't know a lot of the Chinese legends.
Are there other cultures that have legends about a great flood similar to the bible's flood?
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Lincoln
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I am a cross between CyperShy and Rogan Josh (see his first post on page one). As far as a flood goes there is ample evidence for it. When it occured I do not know but the logistics are no problem. The God of the Bible is a God of the supernatural. Asking where the water went or came from is absurd in that context. He claims to be the creator so the question is irrelevant. But if you study the grand canyon you will find ample evidence of large amounts of water and the erosion it caused for example.
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Frogman
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quote:
from obiwan
Did the Nephilim survive the flood? No. The people of great size resembled the Nephilim in stature. The scouts reported falsely out of fear and lack of trust in God. Their sin caused Israel to wander in the desert for 40 years rather than entering Canaan.
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What part of "We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). " leads you to say that? You are ignoring the plain statement and twisting it to meet your own understanding. Your interpretation has no Biblical basis. Many scholars have looked at this, and it is not so easy to dismiss. Thats why its usually ignored.
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Man sinned, prompting God to grieve and consider the complete destruction of humanity. Do you blame God for creating man in the first place Frogman? |
I don't blame God for anything. Its just a pathetic vision of God. He creates all the beauty of the universe, and the earth, and the balance of nature, and he tops it off with mankind only to be disappointed in the end? Of all the people on the earth I can't believe Noah and his family were the only decent people. Noah was prone to getting drunk, he wasn't perfect. Plus it didn't fix anything. People are just as sinful later. This God of yours needs some therapy.
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Why not? Isn't eating meat delicious? |
Yeah, laugh it off. Thats the only way you can anwer this ridiculous belief that we were all vegetarian before Noah.
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Frogman
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
And no, scientists are no good reason to doubt, since they're as human as the writers of the OT.
In that case I prefer to listen to the eye-witnesses. |
And what eye witness was that? Who exactly did God tell all this stuff to?
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
As far as a flood goes there is ample evidence for it. When it occured I do not know but the logistics are no problem. |
That is simply not true. There is NO evidence for a massive worldwide flood as depicted in Genesis. The sediment layers show no such thing occured. So supernatural God would not only have had to contort his own laws of physics to an absurd degree to create the flood, he would also have had to contort them again to hide the evidence for it (i.e. cover it up, for some inexplicable reason).
Now I ask you, why would an omnipotent, omniscient being, who knew since the dawn of time that the Flood would happen, go through the extreme measures of bothering to create an extremely complex and sensible set of physical laws for how the universe works, only to have to violate those very laws at every turn? If God knew the Flood was coming, he should have just made it so it could happen naturally, if he wanted there to be no evidence of supernatural intervention. But that's not what he did, if the Biblical account is accurate. He bent over backwards to do it, then did so again to hide it. Why? Why didn't he work smarter, not harder, and prepare for the Flood contigency? Why didn't he do it in a way that would be physically possible?
God would have to have been dumb to have done the Flood as described in Genesis.
And we know how the Grand Canyon was made: by steady erosion over millions of years. It wasn't created by a 40-day flood.
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Jon Miller
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I am a creationist of some type
basically I am not sure how much God used 'natural' processes for creation
pretty sure that the universe is billions of years old (whatever number frogger quoted)
I think that the earth and the like could have come about 'naturally' (I think that our science is right) but also don't see anything wrong with it being created 7000ish years ago (it would be created as if it had been evolving for 4 billion or so years), dinosaur bones in this case would have been created as part of a complete and well made world
I beleive in Noahs flood (it at least wiped out all the human lands, I suppose it did not need to be elsewhere)
my church is deffinitely in the YEC camp
Jon Miller
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Frogman
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Jon Miller
The extreme literalists take the dinosaurs to be on the ark and everything before the flood was a vegetarian. Where does your church stand on that? I would have said no one in our church believes either of those, but start asking and I think you'd be amazed at how many do.
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Lincoln
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quote:
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
...If God knew the Flood was coming, he should have just made it so it could happen naturally, if he wanted there to be no evidence of supernatural intervention. But that's not what he did, if the Biblical account is accurate. He bent over backwards to do it, then did so again to hide it. Why? Why didn't he work smarter, not harder, and prepare for the Flood contigency? Why didn't he do it in a way that would be physically possible?
God would have to have been dumb to have done the Flood as described in Genesis.
And we know how the Grand Canyon was made: by steady erosion over millions of years. It wasn't created by a 40-day flood. |
You do not understand the God of the Bible. He explicitly states in several places in scripture that he does hide evidence from people, especially if their purpose is to elevate themselves, in their own mind, above God. I can quote you several passages if you like. Your above statement, "...he should have..." qualifies you to be one to whom he has hidden knowledge. "He resists the proud..." Which is among other things a mindset that presupposes more knowledge and wisdom than their Creator.
As far as the flood goes, there is ample evidence that the entire planet was under water and the Grand Canyon has evidence that does not support your theory of millions of years of "steady" erosion. Infact there is obvious evidence there of a cataclysmic and rather sudden event.
The bottom line is that I cannot argue about evidence that is both supernatural and physical. It is kind of like asking a scientist to examine Lasarus after Jesus raised him from the dead. What does he prove? He only sees the physical evidence that remains, the supernatural is gone except in the testamonies of those who witnessed the event. Because skeptics do not believe witnesses then the argument is fruitless. I have been a witness of several supernatural events. Do you believe me?
That is why I do not often engage in these types of debates, as there is never a resolution, nor can there ever be one.
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Jon Miller
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quote:
Originally posted by Frogman
Jon Miller
The extreme literalists take the dinosaurs to be on the ark and everything before the flood was a vegetarian. Where does your church stand on that? I would have said no one in our church believes either of those, but start asking and I think you'd be amazed at how many do. |
no dinosaurs on the ark
everyone (humans) shuold have been vegetarrian before ark but weren't
all creatures vegetarrian before fall
Jon Miller
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Lorizael
Oh yah, that's right. I was off by a billion years.
CyberShy, scientists may be humans, but they're humans that employ the scientific method in order to come to conclusions. They observe, analyze, process. And they do this over and over again. |
I think that if we talk about simple things like gravity, shape of the earth, solar system etc. I'll believe scientists over the bible. The bible is not a scientific book, neither tries it to put down a scientific statement if it talks about the 'corners of the earth' etc.
Besides that it was written by scientific ignorant people in those days.
No problem there.
But I don't believe scientists in detail if they talk about billions of years and billions of miles. (lightyears)
The circumstanses are too unsure and too complex.
I respect scientists very much, but some stuff doesn't get my faith that easy.
Things like the flood seem to be very common in ancient stories worldwide. I think it's hard to deny that.
Besides that do scientists have something to lose,
their job. If evolution / ice ages etc. all are been proven wrong scientificly, their duty is gone.
Only the guy who 'discovered it' will be famour.
The rest of them will be considered to be a bunch of idiots.
If not only for that reason the current scientific clan will never ever admit that ie. evolution never happened on macro level.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:27
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Frogman:
quote:
What part of "We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). " leads you to say that?
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You have to look at the context of any statement before you can see where it is coming from. Should we trust the scouts looking at Canaan, when their actions cause Israel to wander in the desert for forty years?
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You are ignoring the plain statement and twisting it to meet your own understanding. Your interpretation has no Biblical basis.
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Now, cite a source please that has a different interpretation than mine. This is no different than what my church teaches on this point.
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I don't blame God for anything. Its just a pathetic vision of God. He creates all the beauty of the universe, and the earth, and the balance of nature, and he tops it off with mankind only to be disappointed in the end?
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Yeah, God is so pathetic that he created mankind with all their flaws. Would you prefer sinless automatons?
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Of all the people on the earth I can't believe Noah and his family were the only decent people. Noah was prone to getting drunk, he wasn't perfect.
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Noah doesn't have to be sinless to find favour in the eyes of God.
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Plus it didn't fix anything. People are just as sinful later. This God of yours needs some therapy.
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But not as sinful, sin has lessened since the flood. God made a covenant with Noah, and later with Abraham, all encouraging the growth of those who do follow his ways. I'm amazed that God still loves people despite our sinfulness.
quote:
Yeah, laugh it off. Thats the only way you can anwer this ridiculous belief that we were all vegetarian before Noah.
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That's a different point from before. Before you said that the bible taught vegetarianism is the root of all evil.
The passage in question:
Genesis 1:29
Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
Why is this interpretation ridiculous? Can't people survive on a vegetarian diet?
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
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Why would God use a massive flood requiring the complete contradiction of his own established laws of the universe and then a subsequent cover up of that event just to kill all the evil people in the world? He could have just smote everyone who was evil. No need to destroy all the animals and land and such with the flood whatsoever. And in the flood he must have killed thousands, perhaps millions of babies and children. Was every one of them wicked, too, and deserving of such a fate? What about all those animals who weren't on the Ark, why did they deserve to perish?
Come to think of it, what about all the plant life? Being submerged for a year underwater would undoubtedly kill everything except sea plant life.
The Flood is fairy tale, it's obvious by its sore lack of common sense. Omnipotent God went a lot out of his way to be dramatic, when all he had to do was just strike down those he knew were evil and leave everyone and everything else alone.
Is it based on true events? Probably, but huge floods aren't exactly miraculous. So a huge flood devastated the area around the Black Sea some 10,000 years ago, legends got made and passed down through the generations, and then it got co-opted by various civilizations into flood myths, be it Gilgamesh or the Bible. It's curious that the Egyptians had no such flood myth, though they had been operating blissfully before, during and after the supposed time of the Biblical flood.
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Q Cubed
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t3h y3ll0w p3ril
Apr 1999
time: 23:27
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1. How old is the Universe?
really, really, really old. in fact, you wouldn't believe how old it was.
2. How old is the Earth?
a few million years old, designed by deep thought and constructed by the magratheans
3. How old is life?
really, really, really old. in the case of earth, however, just a few million years.
4. Was there a Flood? If there was, when?
nope. that was faked too.
5. Was there one Ice Age or more? When?
no. all of that was faked. in fact, slatfartiblast was the one responsible for the fjords in norway.
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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Lincoln
As far as the flood goes, there is ample evidence that the entire planet was under water and the Grand Canyon has evidence that does not support your theory of millions of years of "steady" erosion. Infact there is obvious evidence there of a cataclysmic and rather sudden event.
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Please share some of this "ample evidence" with us.
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11-04-2003 09:42
You'll notice I was referring to large localized floods as not being miraculous (i.e. the Black Sea flood). You do tend to take a lot of things out of context in these arguments...
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