13-04-2003 02:06									#1
	Defense Treaty Offer from Roleplay. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

From Togas:

quote: This is a draft only. DEFENSE PACT BETWEEN GLORY OF WAR AND SPAIN: In the event that either party to this agreement is attacked by Neu Demoglyptica, the other party shall immediately declare war on Neu Demoglyptica and shall commit the majority of their military towards the conquest or destruction of Neu Demoglyptica. Should Neu Demoglyptica settle in areas that are claimed by either party, and should the offended party declare war on Neu Demoglyptica, the other party to this pact must also declare war and shall commit the majority of their military towards the conquest or destruction of Neu Demoglyptica. Once the war has begun the leaders of both nations shall meet, exchange combat and spy information, and attempt to cooperate as much as possible in the joint war effort. Neither party may negotiate a separate peace with Neu Demoglpytica. Peace with Neu Demoglyptica must be agreed on by all parties. This pact shall last for 100 turns.

	13-04-2003 03:26									#2
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Reply:

quote:

j/k

	13-04-2003 03:30									#3
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What would happen if we agree to it....and declare war on RP first....before ND

	13-04-2003 03:33									#4
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well if RP attacks ND it would be no prob then we dont need to attack ND. and it dont say we can't attack eachother during this period of time...
so if we attack RP we dont break it...

And when in war treaties are cancelled, not?
EDIT: Or atleast all will understand we cant follow it when we are at war etc.

Another possibility, if we fake attack ND the treaty isn't activated but surely RP will take the opportunity to attack ND. (pact still isn't activated) Now we can make peace to ND and back stab RP with our hands clean..

There is many ways around this treaty, and just getting RP to feel comfy is worth the effort..
/EDIT

Last edited by Ennet on 13-04-2003 at 05:44

	13-04-2003 03:40									#5
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quote: What would happen if we agree to it....and declare war on RP first....before ND

The wording is that so if ND attacks RP, even if us and RP are at war, it still applies (of course, we could just ignore it). There is 2 possibilities:

1. RP attacks ND, in which case the treaty isn't valid and we can get them.
2. We talk with ND and arrange for us to declare war first, then on the next turn, ND declares. Thus, we can ignore the treaty and other teams would pretty much understand.

	13-04-2003 08:47									#6
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I think we need to string Roleplay along until we declare war.

	13-04-2003 12:26									#7
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quote: Should Neu Demoglyptica settle in areas that are claimed by either party, and should the offended party declare war on Neu Demoglyptica, the other party to this pact must also declare war and shall commit the majority of their military towards the conquest or destruction of Neu Demoglyptica.

Stringing along should be easy as this statement would requier a border agreement to be able to enforce this.

However, I think we should haggle about this for a little while and then agree to it almost as it is.

If we do this, RP will think they have both us and ND in their back pocket.

	13-04-2003 14:29									#8
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Our Rep will be worth nothing after GS.

We may come out a little better, if we claim the units belong to Vox.....but I doubt it.

GS will take whatever we sign but will remain very wary. I dont think they will fully trust us, so we must also accept, that they could go for another MPP partner.

Lego...unlikely.
Vox...possibly....I dont think Vox particulary enjoyed us extorting engineering? from them.

When Vox finishes with GS...they may be pumped up and ready to take on the next victom....we will have to divert their attention away from us.

	13-04-2003 18:24									#9
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I think Vox will be severely weakened after the GS campaign. Thus, I don't think they would be an immediate threat. I think they would be more likely to try and settle the Lego continent some.

Weren't we talking about the Voxians helping somewhat on the Roleplay campaign? Or did that not pan out?

	14-04-2003 07:45									#10
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I think, our rep will be screwed after GS...So we might as well as bury it with RP.

String them out as much as possible....but eventually agree.

Then we backstab them and declare war.

Once RP is gone, there will be only 4.

Hopefully, Vox will be in our back pocket...and ND will be wanting to use their UU's to their best advantage just like us.

We have to work on Vox & ND...and convince them that the greatest threat is Lego. (Which is true)

3 civ aliance against Lego !!!

Then we reconfirm our aliance with ND...telling them Vox is next.

But then we contact Vox...and tell them it is time for the Apolyton teams to unite and remove the Germans.

My choice would be to choose this time to backstab ND. I would rather have Vox & GoW as the last two.

And if we cant roll them 1v1...then we might as well surrender now.


P.S. ... I just checked our science advisor as posted by GF.
Here is the link for those of us who missed it. I did
Science Advisor

	16-04-2003 00:59									#11
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100 turns? jesus f*ck!

	16-04-2003 01:26									#12
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX 100 turns? jesus f*ck!

Who said we expected them to be around that long?

	20-04-2003 13:22									#13
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Well folks, I've been doing some talking with our RP buddies and they are again pressing for an alliance (defensive) against ND.

However, this time they came at me with a little twist which sounded interesting as I could be used to our favor.

Basically they now seem to be worried about the GS war and apprently want to settle on some sort of combined alliance between them, us, and Vox to take out GS.

I told them I liked the idea and then hinted at launching a major assault against GS but somehow misleading ND as towards the size of that attack. My idea was to see how many troops they would be willing to spare and how soon could they be able to deploy them.

I hinted at 6 swordsmen as an ideal amount. They problem say them is that they don't have galleys. They will have one in 3 turns and the next in 9 turns.

Ok, so 4 swordsmen. They wanted our map. I said if they rushed the galley we might be willing to gift the map as compensation. So let's say we get 2 galleys off towards GS land, I said we could have 4 units there quickly too, 8 units total for this "expeditionary force"

My idea of course is to see how many troops they would divert from their home front. After all, our own "expeditionary" could for all intents be our current galley and 1 empty one

Of couse they said it would be best if they got Feudalism early.

First of all, we'd suffer a reputation hit, and second of all, if we did, we would have to increase our asking price of 75 gold as it would be earlier than inteneded. Anyway, nothing conclusive about this as I did not want to sound willing to actually trade for this.

Point is, they really want an alliance with us, and keep insisting that we are each other's "natural allies". Yes, right, whatever... I'm sure our Riders will agree

Anyway, I think we can still fool around with them a bit before accepting a modified version of the MPP. Since I see Togas and BigFree almost every night in the ISDG chat I'm sure the issue will be brought on constantly.

If you want I can include a chat log. I'll see how much I can push RP sending troops to the Vox-RP without giving them Feudalism. "hell, theres a bunch of undefended cities, you don't need Med Infs!!"

anyway, something along those lines.

Anything we should start working on the defense treaty and making it as possibly loop-holey as possible

	20-04-2003 13:33									#14
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Don't give them anything for free, we're almost Republican Capitalists.

	20-04-2003 15:07									#15
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Hmmm.... I had never thought about RP when thinking about the Vox/GS conflict. This could be a nice side effect to a deal with RP. If we publicly ink a defensive treaty with RP (which we know we will either break or find a loop-hole in) then it would give RP the idea that ND is less likely to attack either us or them making them more likely to want to commit troops to the Little Bob conflict. We, of course tell ND that RP is commiting troops over to little Bob while RP still thinks that ND thinks they are at full strentgh on Bob. We give ND continuous troop info about RP so they (and us) know when the best time to attack is.

I think we need to get this signed soon, very soon...
Damn we are

	20-04-2003 19:05									#16
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I do not believe RP has any interest in the Vox/GS conflict.
In fact, I think they are feeding information to GS...perhaps trying to get us to reveal anything about our real intentions.

I would not tell them anything.....Let RP come up with an agreement, and we will "let him know in due time".

	20-04-2003 20:32									#17
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Roleplay has NEVER committed any troops in fulfillment of and treaty and has NEVER assisted any ally or mutual defense partner.

	20-04-2003 23:17									#18
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They already saw our little "so many undefended cities" line so they know something is up between us and GS.

What I think is that they want an excuse to get Feudalism which is something they won't get, at least from us. GS definitely offered them Fedualism but at 200 gold they might have been to stingy to pay especially since we had offered them for 75 gold 10 turns later.

I'll see how far I can get then with this (of course no definite agreement). I'll see if they would be willing to commit swordsmen instead of med infs. If that doesn't work then screw it.

Also, I'm not sure what's the big interest in RP feeding info to GS. I mean, people don't ally themselves with teams which for all they know might be wiped out soon. Anyway, all they tell GS can also be used against them as we have it on log too

	20-04-2003 23:26									#19
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Here's the deal, we offered Roleplay Feudalism for 75 gold in 10 turns, pretty decent considering it would cost them 200 gold from GS.

Togas went and whined to GS about how much we were asking and now GS is pissed we offered it to Roleplay for 765 gold.

Screw them, in my opinion they just negotiated themselves into paying GS 200 gold for Feudalism.

	20-04-2003 23:53									#20
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Screw both GS and RP.

After the 10 turns they have no say in what we offer it for.

As for RP I never intended Feudalsm to be an issue, they brought it up and I dismissed it. I have and had no intention of giving them Feudalism any time before and well, if they keep *****ing about it then I'll gladly screw them "officially"

	21-04-2003 00:28									#21
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things I think we should change about the defense treaty with RP:

1) First of all I don't like the idea of triggering war when one civ "settles on a claimed part" of the continent. We would need a comprehensive border treaty and IMO it would be too much hassle. Plus, we want the treaty to be activated when WE want to, not when RP wants to and that would just give them an excuse to start crying that ND settled somewhere they claim and force us to declare war. We will start the war when WE are ready, not RP.


2) Loopholes. If ND attacks us we are bound to declare war. If ND attackes them we are also bound to declare war. But if we declare war on ND then nothing happens So we can just invent an excuse that we saw ND troops massing on the border or whatever and that we began "pre-emptive" action. Then whoops, misunderstanding, it's all good, we love germans, hey, I have an idea, let's use our combined armies to squash RP! yes...

... squash.

No treaties broken.

	26-04-2003 23:28									#22
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My Revised draft of the RP treaty, I suggest we agree and I'll send it off to Togas and BigFree ASAP as they constantly nag me with it...

"RP and GoW are natural allies! RP and GoW are natural allies! RP and GoW are natural allies! ...."

(I really try not to laugh)

quote: This is a draft only. DEFENSE PACT BETWEEN GLORY OF WAR AND SPAIN: In the event that either party to this agreement is attacked by Neu Demoglyptica, the other party shall immediately declare war on Neu Demoglyptica and shall commit the majority of their military towards the conquest or destruction of Neu Demoglyptica. Once the war has begun the leaders of both nations shall meet, exchange combat and spy information, and attempt to cooperate as much as possible in the joint war effort. Neither party may negotiate a separate peace with Neu Demoglpytica. Peace with Neu Demoglyptica must be agreed on by all parties. This pact shall last for 30 turns upon which it may be renegotiated.

Loopholes:

War can begin presumably by us declaring war on ND upon which the treaty does not come into effect as it is purely defensive. Our excuse will be that we saw a "target of opportunity" (say a big juicy ND stack) taking up battle positions and we decided to attack as it would be in a defended area during the next turn and could presumably threaten insert favorite city here.

Once we declare war, we suddenly switch stories, making some shitty excuse... oh no, it was actually a huge stack of shibering workers!!! Sorry, misunderstanding. Now, guess what? ND and GoW have an alliance to destroy you!!! BUAHAHAHA



so, what do you think?

What I took out:

I took out the part about "if ND settles in an area claimed by... because I don't want to give them an easy excuse to make them feel threatened, they might claim ND moved a settler and took it out, how would we know?. The point is making it impossible for RP to start the war by themselves.

The excuse I gave Togas and BF in the chat is that we don't want to piss off ND earlier than needed by insisting on border treaties.

What I changed:

changed 100 turns to 30 turns.


Please tell me if you like it or not so I can send it to Togas sometime this weekend

	27-04-2003 00:18									#23
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Sounds like you know what you're doing.

	27-04-2003 02:49									#24
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Only because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants

(mean and warlike giants)

	29-04-2003 06:08									#25
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So, I assume everyone agrees with this... I'm sending it to Togas and BigFree

	30-04-2003 11:09									#26
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Official reply from BigFree:

quote: This Pact is hereby approved by the Nation of Spain. May we both prosper while our enemies wither. BigFree Chief Ambassador to the Crown of Spain ps What was the deal with the WM being offered and then pulled back?

BTW, the whole WM thing was that they received an offer for our world map! I don't know what that was about....

	30-04-2003 17:40									#27
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anyways, Demogyptica is misspelled, so thats another loophole

	30-04-2003 18:29									#28
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"They have proven themselves to be agents of chaos, and not to be trusted." MrWIA, RP ambassador to Demogyptica, on the GoW team.

I can't wait to present those words to him as my sword removes his tongue for uttering such disrespect.

	30-04-2003 18:46									#29
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx "They have proven themselves to be agents of chaos, and not to be trusted." MrWIA, RP ambassador to Demogyptica, on the GoW team. I can't wait to present those words to him as my sword removes his tongue for uttering such disrespect.

Instead of naming a horse for UnOrtho, "UnOrthOdOx", why not name it "Agent of Chaos" and send it to roam around Roleplayland.

	30-04-2003 18:50									#30
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Unfortunately, we got that quote from a source that would reveal our ties with ND.