13-04-2003 09:53									#1
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The Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad has been looted over the last few days. According to CBC reports, the curators of the museum had asked for American assistance in protecting the treasures even before American troops entered the city. None was forthcoming.

Artifacts from the early Mesopotamian & Babylonian civilizations were taken. Larger pieces of statuary were vandalized - several statues had heads & limbs hacked off and stolen.

The damage is irreplaceable, of course.

Long after George W Bush becomes a footnote, this incident will be remembered and mourned.

I guess we should look to EBay for bargains soon.

Should America pay for this tragedy ?

	13-04-2003 09:58									#2
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Um why? The kicking out of Saddam is worth this minor looting, which btw, was done by Iraqis and not American soldiers.

	13-04-2003 09:58									#3
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Antiquities have been swiped after wars for at least 8000 years, and guess what, civilizations still here.

	13-04-2003 10:00									#4
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I imagine some will be recovered, I mean how long can u wash ur hands in a 4000 year old plate before deciding maybe u should sell it?

	13-04-2003 10:04									#5
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While not our fault, it's still a great tragedy.

	13-04-2003 10:05									#6
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I think it shows clearly, that the immediate restoration of order seems to not actually matter to US troops. They showed up for 30 minutes during days of looting, fired some shots and left. It probably would have taken a handful of US soldiers to prevent the rampant looting of the museum, but, of course, does the US care enough? Clearly not.

	13-04-2003 10:08									#7
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quote: I think it shows clearly, that the immediate restoration of order seems to not actually matter to US troops

Um duh. The immediate goal is to secure the country. Restoration of order is AFTER that.

	13-04-2003 10:11									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Victor Galis I think it shows clearly, that the immediate restoration of order seems to not actually matter to US troops. They showed up for 30 minutes during days of looting, fired some shots and left. It probably would have taken a handful of US soldiers to prevent the rampant looting of the museum, but, of course, does the US care enough? Clearly not.

Yeah, and if they had shot a bunch of looters, I'm sure everyone would be complaining about that.

	13-04-2003 10:12									#9
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This collection was unique in the world. It contained artifacts from the earliest civilized period in the middle east; one of the earliest civ sites in the world.

The curators guarded the museum during the Iran/Iraq war and only retreated this time when it was obvious the US troups had no interest in helping them.

This wasn't the Saddam Museum. This was a rare world treasure. The US could have done something, but didn't.

Of course, the victor gets to write history. I guess with the museum looted the US might try to put forth a more convincing case that Iraqi civilization began with the 2003 liberation.

But the world is watching in disgust as Iraq is being left to anarchy and Americans troups do diddly. This is a dark day for civilization.

Maybe a Starbucks® will be opened on the site.

	13-04-2003 10:14									#10
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quote: The US could have done something, but didn't.

What exactly? I mean, they had been fighting in Baghdad University over the last few days. But, the war doesn't matter, they should have put armed guards at the museum instead, right?

	13-04-2003 10:15									#11
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to some extent I think the idea of the american military entering baghdad and immediately arresting/shooting ppl for doing civil crimes would be seen poorly by the iraqi's.

we should protect the hospitals/etc. but there's no better way to overstay ur welcome then the instant u get in to act like the dictator u just kicked out.

	13-04-2003 10:17									#12
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Oh no! Millenium old plates are going to actually have people eating from them! US troops should be tried for war crimes!

	13-04-2003 10:21									#13
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Jesus, you morons will find a way to blame anything on the US, won't you?

	13-04-2003 10:21									#14
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Come on Jaquar. You would have to have a black heart not to think that this occurrence sucks.

	13-04-2003 10:24									#15
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It does. But the thread creator wouldn't have started this thread if, say, there was a fire there. It only because there were US troops somewhere near the building that could have possibly saved it. Hence it is the US's fault.

	13-04-2003 10:24									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Um why? The kicking out of Saddam is worth this minor looting, which btw, was done by Iraqis and not American soldiers.

That's almost like saying "Waking up America is worth the distruction of a couple of office towers in NYC ,which btw, was done by Saudis, and not Iraqi soldiers."

America promised to give Iraq an American style of governance; now the Iraqi cities are just like East LA.

quote: Originally posted by yavoon we should protect the hospitals/etc. but there's no better way to overstay ur welcome then the instant u get in to act like the dictator u just kicked out.

The US is not protecting hospitals. They have also been looted. Doctors are carrying rifles while making their rounds. (BBC Int.)

	13-04-2003 10:26									#17
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quote: now the Iraqi cities are just like East LA.

How did all those Mexicans get to Iraq?

	13-04-2003 10:27									#18
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Its obvious the US is not guilty that people want to loot, buy the US is guilty of not having sent soldiers to guard sites of importance. Even with all the low intensity fighting going on in baghdad, the Us has enough forces to portect key areas, but they did not. That is a failure on the part of the US. After all this is not the first time the US ahs taken out a regime and looting followed.

As for all the people making fun of this event, or saying its nothing, imagine the Smithsonian getting looted and priceless pieces of American hisotry vanishing...yeah, I guess you guys are right, priceless history doesn't matter, after all, that's why its priceless.

	13-04-2003 10:27									#19
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I'm confused how people honestly expect ~15,000 US troops to adequately control 6M people in Baghdad, especially when they're incensed and looting like this, as well as fight against militia/suicide people...

If the people in Baghdad get their rocks off by looting their own museums, it's a tragedy, but it's their damn fault.

And whose fault is it that the Baghdad police decided to take a vacation because Saddam is AWOL?

	13-04-2003 10:28									#20
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Because anyone actually believes that 'waking up America' was worth the destruction of the World Trade Center? And I'm sure you don't like the way the US has been 'woken up'

However, kicking Saddam out of power DEFINETLY justifies the destruction of some ancient artifacts.

quote: America promised to give Iraq an American style of governance; now the Iraqi cities are just like East LA.

Yes, we were supposed to take Baghdad in 2 days, and now we are supposed to turn Iraq into a western democracy within a month .

And it is isn't like your anti-American past on these forums makes your argument any stronger.

	13-04-2003 10:29									#21
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the US is protecting hospitals now. and yes a lot of hospitals have been looted.

I think ur just ready to be outraged. ur like an outrage waiting to happen and all semblance of reasonable has left.

would u prefer we simply shoot ppl who try to take crap? I mean we are pretty limited in our policing. we basically can threatan to shoot u then shoot u. we dont know the language, no1 has training in policing. the populace in general is going to be very touchy to wut it sees as american domination.

so wut? just start firing into crowds?

	13-04-2003 10:30									#22
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I'm wondering how people expect the US troops to control the looting too...

I'm sure the Iraqi people will be welcoming them even more with wide-open arms once the US starts firing tear gas at everyone or shooting them, right?

	13-04-2003 10:31									#23
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quote: Even with all the low intensity fighting going on in baghdad, the Us has enough forces to portect key areas, but they did not.

What makes you think this? The US force isn't that big, Baghdad is a huge city and many troops have already moved on to Tikrit and other areas. I wouldn't be suprised to find out that the US doesn't have enough troops to spare for guard duties. I really wish they did; as a museum whore, I hate to see anything like this happen.

	13-04-2003 10:32									#24
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quote: As for all the people making fun of this event, or saying its nothing, imagine the Smithsonian getting looted and priceless pieces of American hisotry vanishing...yeah, I guess you guys are right, priceless history doesn't matter, after all, that's why its priceless.

If some other country was liberating us from a dictator, I'd forgive them for destroying the Lincoln Memorial, not even mentioning looting done by Americans of the Smithsonian (which is less 'valuable' to the Lincoln).

	13-04-2003 10:32									#25
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If the people in Baghdad get their rocks off by looting their own museums, it's a tragedy, but it's their damn fault.

True.

	13-04-2003 10:35									#26
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quote: However, kicking Saddam out of power DEFINETLY justifies the destruction of some ancient artifacts.

that sir, is a dumb statement.

The US should have known, from previous experience, that once you removed the power of the Iraqi regime, a vacuum would open up in which looting and other mayhem could occur. They should have been prepared, since it IS the US's RESPONIBILITY, once it removed the previous power, to enforce law and protect the people of Iraq and its natural and national treasures. The Museum was NOT LOOTED simply cause the US removed Saddam: it was looted becuase the Us removed local poower without having any preparations for what would happen. The US was olbigated to secure places such as this, and it failed in that obligation.

The excuses put forward here are rather pitifull. The US is now the occupying power in Iraq: it has responsibilities under the law to fulfill. It is that simple. Figthing somewhere accross the city, given that the US has well over 50,000 men in that city, certainly more than the Baghdad police ever had, is no excuse. Even as the article points out, had US forcws simply moved a single piece of armor to a new and not radically different spot, some of the damage would have been mitigated.

	13-04-2003 10:38									#27
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Who could possibly expect the American government to actually think through what their actions will cause?

	13-04-2003 10:38									#28
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GePap: There are 50,000 men in Baghdad right now? What's the source for that?

Also, did the Baghdad police have to worry about:
1) Public perception -- how bad would it look for US forces to be launching tear gas and shooting at Iraqi civilians intentionally in the Arab world and in Iraq itself?
2) Militants who attack them in suicide busses and the like
3) Searching for chemical weapons and boobytraps

	13-04-2003 10:39									#29
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And as for the "what do you do, shoot them?" comments:

We are shooting peope daily at checkpoints when our troops get jumpy. I think Iraqis would understand the use of force to stop looting, gievn that many of them are arming themselevs to out and end to it as well.

As they say, "don't go into the kitchen if you can't stand the fire". You guys wanted regime change, fine, you got it, now live the fvck up to the responsibilities that it carries with it!

	13-04-2003 10:39									#30
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quote: Originally posted by JW But the thread creator wouldn't have started this thread if, say, there was a fire there. It only because there were US troops somewhere near the building that could have possibly saved it. Hence it is the US's fault.

Over the years, I have frequently condemned the senseless destruction of irreplaceable artifacts. With occupation, the occupying forces do under international law have certain obligations. This could have been prevented.

quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm confused how people honestly expect ~15,000 US troops to adequately control 6M people in Baghdad, especially when they're incensed and looting like this, as well as fight against militia/suicide people... If the people in Baghdad get their rocks off by looting their own museums, it's a tragedy, but it's their damn fault. And whose fault is it that the Baghdad police decided to take a vacation because Saddam is AWOL?

As I said before, I expect "the troubles" in Iraq to last for a very long time and the occupation to be a very long and unpleasant one for all involved. You'd have thought even Rumsfeld would have figured that out by now. And you're right Asher. The US will need tens of thousands of additional troops in Iraq to simply to restore order.