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Alvaro
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the land of the not so free
Apr 2003
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
Seriously, Ubergeek. Be prepared to read books of gross falcifications and outright lies, from both sides. |
quite true, that.
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S. Kroeze
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the Hague, the Netherlands, Old Europe
Dec 1999
time: 05:27
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Dear Ubergeek,
About a year ago I posted this post, which still seems useful:
(as could be expected the Zionist lobby lost no time to dismiss ALL books mentioned as unreliable, biased, propaganda etc.; you will probably discover that this is their main debating strategy in every discussion about Palestine;
until this day they haven't succeeded recommending a better encyclopaedia than the Encyclopaedia Britannica, though I have asked several times;
nor have they ever explained how they search for academic research)
"Since I am just a simple historian -accustomed to give chapter and verse- and only able to form an opinion AFTER I have read a book, I am most grateful to you for sharing your insight with me about a professional study you will never read. I rather envy you for this ability.
Unfortunately your words have made me recognize that the intellectual integrity of the Western world is in danger. Only a day ago I would have trusted the 'Encyclopaedia Britannica', which states that in Israel
"The most significant economic divisions among Israeli Jews are between Sefardim and Ashkenazim, the former tending to be poorer and less educated than the latter, as well as underrepresented in higher office. Arabs are generally in the lower socioeconomic categories." (1998 edition)
So even the Britannica is contaminated with anti-Semitic, Muslim propaganda!
This same 1998 edition recommends the following studies about Israel/Palestine:
"Economic studies include Nadav Halevi and Ruth Klinov-Malul, The Economic Development of Israel (1968); and, for more recent events,
Yair Aharoni, The Israeli Economy (1991).
Administrative and political aspects are explored by Don Peretz, The Government and Politics of Israel, 2nd ed., updated (1983);
Edward Luttwak and Dan Horowitz, The Israeli Army, 1948-1973 (1983)
William Frankel, Israel observed (1980); and
Gregory S. Mahler, Israel: Government and Politics in a Maturing State (1990).
Dov Friedlander and Calvin Goldscheider, The Population of Israel (1979), is a highly useful work on population policy.
Raanan Weitz and Avshalom Rokach, Agriculture and Rural Development in Israel: Projection and Planning, trans. from Hebrew (1963),
and Agricultural Development: Planning and Implementation (1968), examine economic aspects.
Joseph S. Bentwich, Education in Israel (1965), is informative and comprehensive.
Two sociological studies summarize the great changes in Israeli life since independence:
Amir Ben-Porat, Divided We Stand: Class Structure in Israel from 1948 to the 1980s (1989); and
Eliezer Ben-Rafael and Stephen Sharot, Ethnicity, Religion, and Class in Israeli Society (1991).
Israeli culture is critically analyzed by Ella Shohat, Israeli Cinema: East/West and the Politics of Representation (1989).
Works describing the Zionist movement and the establishment and subsequent history of Israel include Nahum Sokolow, History of Zionism 1600-1918, 2 vol. (1919, reprinted 2 vol. in 1, 1969);
Leonard Stein, Zionism (1925);
Norman Bentwich, Palestine (1934, reissued 1946);
Albert M.Hyamson, Palestine Under the Mandate, 1920-1948 (1950, reprinted 1976);
and Barnet Litvinoff, To the house of Their Fathers: A History of Zionism (1965).
Valuable new interpretations are contained in Peter Y. Medding, The Founding of Israeli Democracy, 1948-1967 (1990); and
Laurence J. Silberstein, New Perspectives on Israeli History: The Early Years of the State (1991).
The material available on the Palestine question, Israel, and Arab-Israeli relations is vast, hardly any of it objective. Some of the few works that are objective include
Ian J. Bickerton and Carla L. Klausner, A Concise History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (1991);
Fred J. Khouri, The Arab-Israeli Dilemma, 3rd ed. (1985)
Conor Cruise O'Brien, The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism (1986);
Don Peretz, Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising (1990);
Bernard Reich and Gershon R. Kieval, Israel: Land of Tradition and Conflict, 2nd ed. (1993);
Howard M. Sachar, A History of Israel, 2 vol. (1979-87); and Charles D. Smith, Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 2nd ed. (1992)."
Doubtless it will not escape your notice that several studies recommended by the Britannica were used -sometimes even quoted- as a source by Baylis Thomas.
I also discovered that this same 'moronic crap' is recommended as a compulsory introduction to courses on the Arab-Israeli conflict at some American universities -with the study by Charles D. Smith(1992).
So even the American 'Old South', of old a bulwark of liberty, equality and fraternity, is nowadays infiltrated by Palestinian and anti-Semitic propaganda! A most heinous spectre!
quote:
he actually believes this, based on several misconceptions created by interest groups, like the palestinians and anti-zionist orthodox jews.
I'm willing to do my best to relieve this text of factual discrepancies.
That shouldn't be too tough |
Please do!
I also hope -since the established academic world can no longer be trusted- you are willing to recommend at least one reliable, recent study about the position of minorities in Israel. I am NOT lazy, so I promise to read it.
I understand that you can live with 'revealed knowledge', but my commonplace intellectual capacities will remain dependent on independent scholarly research."
Another way to search for reliable academic studies is to study the bibliographies of reference books for historians, like
R.R. Palmer/ J. Colton, A History of the Modern World, 1995, which contains an excellent bibliography.
When you need more advise about heuristics do not hesitate to ask me.
Sincerely,
S.Kroeze
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Edan
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You'll have a hard (if not impossible) time trying to find completely neutral books, but...
If you just want the basics, you can try The Complete Idiot's Guide to the Middle East Conflict. You can try The Arab-Israeli Wars by Herzog for a good book on the military aspect. The Israeli-Arab Reader is a collection of documents, speeches, etc, through the years which is worth taking a look at.
quote:
Originally posted by S. Kroeze
Another way to search for reliable academic studies is to study the bibliographies of reference books for historians |
Or as you've done in the past, study the bibliographies of anti-semitic websites and copy and paste from directly from them? 
Last edited by Edan on 14-04-2003 at 05:30
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
You mean like that bastion of anti-semitic filth, the Encyclopedia Brittanica?
[/qb] |
No, I mean like those caitations from marxists.de that we discussed in the last thread, that were direct copy & pastings from the website, with the exact same quotes and the same exact abbreviations, lack of pages, etc. that Kroeze has yet to account for - no doubt it's just a cosmic million to one coincidence, right?
quote:
Good example on a traditonal pro-israeli debating technique, though. When you can't deny the opponents arguments, call him an anti-semite.
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 That's good. When I countered his "quotations" with my own sources, he simply ignored them. When I countered by unveiling the source of his quotes, he simply slinked away, not even bothering to defend himself. Seems to me you do more of his defending than he does, even when it becomes blatently hypocritical when you state that you never would use drivel from anti-semitic websites and then later defend Kroeze's use of information from anti-semitic websites.
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Zevico
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Melbourne
Apr 2002
time: 15:27
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A few good ones I have come upon include Ben Gurion's political autobiography, and Arthur Kroeze's "Promise and Fulfillment".
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gsmoove23
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Some good ones I've come across...
"The Iron Wall" by Avi Shlaim. History of Israel beginning with the birth of zionism to Oslo. Criticized by zionists but I think its pretty objective if not a little skewed to the Israeli side.
"One Palestine Complete" by Tom Segev. History of the British Mandate in Palestine, from my perspective slightly skewed to the zionist side but almost imperceptable.
"Drinking the Sea at Gaza" by Amira Haas. Alright, if you're looking for an objective history this may not be the one to go to but if you're curious about what makes a palestinian it is very useful. Shes an Israeli journalist who lived in Gaza and describes the life. Shes pro-palestinian but gives a really good description of palestinian politics, hamas-fatah rivalry. Very good read.
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:27
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Edan: [quote[No, I mean like those caitations from marxists.de that we discussed in the last thread, that were direct copy & pastings from the website, with the exact same quotes and the same exact abbreviations, lack of pages, etc. that Kroeze has yet to account for - no doubt it's just a cosmic million to one coincidence, right?[/quote]
So you don't pretend to meet his points in this thread, but only aim to rekindle an old argument. As a sign of intellectual honesty, don't you think you should point this out? How about "While Kroeze is absolutely right about the impartiality of the EB, I have issues about some of his old sources."
In regards to the "million to one coincidence", I don't see the problem. If I have to quote something from a book (or more often, a journal article), the first thing I do is search for the relevant text online. What is the point of retyping something that is already available?
quote:
That's good. When I countered his "quotations" with my own sources, he simply ignored them. When I countered by unveiling the source of his quotes, he simply slinked away, not even bothering to defend himself. Seems to me you do more of his defending than he does, even when it becomes blatently hypocritical when you state that you never would use drivel from anti-semitic websites and then later defend Kroeze's use of information from anti-semitic websites. |
He DID answer you. You were asked to actually CHECK the source, and point out any discrepancy or misrepresentation. Your counterargument was that the book you picked, "The Diaries of Theodore Herzl" (?), did not exist. Kroeze answered you that you had looked for the editors name, and not the author, and gave you a more detailed reference.
Consequently, the ball is squarely back in your corner. Read the book. Come back.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu Your counterargument was that the book you picked, "The Diaries of Theodore Herzl" (?), did not exist.
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No that was one counterargument of several I gave and it was the only one he bothered to reply to.
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Edan
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
Actually, that is the ONLY specific example you give in the entire thread. You also link to an older thread, where the same example is the only specific example.
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Actually, it was several quotes all originating that anti-Semitic website.
quote:
Since I'm assuming your silence in this issue means you've finally understod the flaw in that argument, you are left with only one option: Read the actual book or admit defeat. |
Nonsense - I've more than adequoatly shown that Kroeze gets "sources" off the internet - and specifically anti-semetic websites that "spout drivel" as you yourself have stated - thats more than enough to discredit him to me and to many others - though of course, there will still be some people who will agree and defend him, even if it counters their own statements that they themselves would never use "drivel from anti-semitic websites".
I have no intention of wasting my time trying to disprove Kroeze because he - and you - don't address a logical argument by the other side if it complicates your case. He didn't bother to refute or address any of my refutation of his work with a variety of sources - so why should I expect a different response in the future?
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:27
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quote:
Actually, it was several quotes all originating that anti-Semitic website. |
So? You picked ONE. You made a lot of how you were unable to find it, and how it thus didn;t exist. When Kroeze showed it to you, you didn't even look at it, but started whining about how he wouldn't meet your other points.
For heavens sake, why should he? If you just wave away the one he just gave you, why should he assume that you would care more for the others? He even said so, IIRC.
so again: read the book. If the quote in the book does not correspond to the quote Kroeze posted, let us know. Hell, if the context of the quote changes the preception of it would be cause enough to let us know. But until then, you really have no place to talk - you are just trying to salvage your own pride by snice comments.
quote:
Nonsense - I've more than adequoatly shown that Kroeze gets "sources" off the internet - and specifically anti-semetic websites that "spout drivel" as you yourself have stated - thats more than enough to discredit him to me and to many others - though of course, there will still be some people who will agree and defend him, even if it counters their own statements that they themselves would never use "drivel from anti-semitic websites".
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And you still haven't understood why the presence of a quote on an anti-semitic website has no bearing on the original source?
Hmm, maybe I should use this to my advantage. Let's say I set up a vehemently anti-semtitic website, and I quote heavily from the Jerusalem Post. Would the JP thus be discredited in your eyes?
If so, excellent.
If not, why?
quote:
I have no intention of wasting my time trying to disprove Kroeze because he - and you - don't address a logical argument by the other side if it complicates your case. He didn't bother to refute or address any of my refutation of his work with a variety of sources - so why should I expect a different response in the future? |
Well, obviously I am unable to find this refutation. Can you please post it again?
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gsmoove23
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Uh guys, bring it to another thread. I'd actually like to see what other books people would suggest or what people might want to say about the books that have already been suggested.
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14-04-2003 01:07
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