14-04-2003 13:33									#1
	"A voyage of 100,000 years" Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The history channel has a space show on. It would take Voyager 100,000 years to get to another star.

Is it possible to build a space ship to make such a journey, with people?

The human race has been around on the spaceship Earth for longer than that. Could we build a ship that permits many generations to come and go?

	14-04-2003 13:35									#2
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cryochambers are the real deal.

	14-04-2003 13:35									#3
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quote: Could we build a ship that permits many generations to come and go?

I wonder how long it will take for them to divide to groups and start fighting.

	14-04-2003 13:38									#4
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cryochambers...I kind of doubt it. The best we could do is freeze sperm and eggs, and make people a few decades before they get there, raising them by robots.

Eli, so they fight? They'll get over it.

	14-04-2003 13:40									#5
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why not, lancer? it has been proven to exist in other species, esp. that frog.

Now all we have to do is to find out how exactly he does that, copy the needed genes into humans, and shove ourselves into a fridge.

	14-04-2003 13:47									#6
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If you can make frog people, why not just build people to live a million years?

	14-04-2003 13:49									#7
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We will build them to last. I plan to get the ever-young retroviral treatment as soon as it hits the market.

We wouldn't keep them awake though. they might screw things up.

	14-04-2003 16:32									#8
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Well...considering civilization has only been around for 4,000 years, I don't think any hope would last for 100,000.

	14-04-2003 16:42									#9
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They wouldn't survive anymore then 3 generations before something goes fataly wrong with the ship or everyone kills each other.

	14-04-2003 16:43									#10
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And it would suck geting to the star and finding out that there is nothing there for us.

	14-04-2003 17:12									#11
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Well...considering civilization has only been around for 4,000 years, I don't think any hope would last for 100,000.

uhmmm noooooo.... The Egyptians built the Pyramids in between 3000-2900 BC... that's over 5,000 years. And there were human civilizations even before that. And humans as we know it have roamed the Earth for around 2 million years. Just because they didn't have technology doesn't mean they weren't intelligent. In fact, I think ancient humans were just as smart as we are today. They managed to survive and invent so much starting from nothing. The world was a very wild and untamed place before humans took over. Barring an extinction level event, human will be around for a long time. 100,000 years is a drop in the bucket.

As for on topic... I think eventually, humans will discover ways to generate more power and control magnetic fields. Doing so would allow the creation of so called "interial dampers" which would allow spacecraft to accelerate at rates like 30G's +. IMO, the only thing limiting human endeavors to other stars is the amount of power we can generate. If we ever figure out how to use fusion, such journeys may become possible. Although I think its highly unlikely that manned missions to such an extent will occur unless the planet is dying. Humans, especially capitalists, are notoriously cheap, and don't want to spend the time, money, or resources unless it's necessary. Don't rule out probes though.

	14-04-2003 18:02									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think eventually, humans will discover ways to generate more power and control magnetic fields. Doing so would allow the creation of so called "interial dampers" which would allow spacecraft to accelerate at rates like 30G's +.

WTF? Are you getting that out of a bad sci-fi story or crackpot theorist?

"Magnets, the answer is always magnets".

	14-04-2003 18:03									#13
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civilization exists for around 12k years, If I take the time of the first walled settlement as the beginning of civilization.

	14-04-2003 19:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sava As for on topic... I think eventually, humans will discover ways to generate more power and control magnetic fields. Doing so would allow the creation of so called "interial dampers" which would allow spacecraft to accelerate at rates like 30G's +.

The real problem isn't acceleration but fuel. Years ago, I did the calculations of how long it would take to travel to Alpha Centauri assuming a constant acceleration of 1 G to the halfway point and then a constant deceleration of 1 G the rest of the way. It took six years. But a six-year accelatation assumes virtually unlimited fuel.

Oh yeah, that nasty little Tau factor comes into play once you start getting into relativistic speeds. But the main problem is fuel, fuel, fuel.

	14-04-2003 20:00									#15
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Well, fuel wouldn't be a problem with a nuclear ship, don't you think ? But fusion would be better of course.

	14-04-2003 20:00									#16
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Aren't fusion power and superconductors assumes to provide gigantic amounts of energy unheard of until now ?

	14-04-2003 20:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Aren't fusion power and superconductors assumes to provide gigantic amounts of energy unheard of until now ?

Fusion power is simply a controlled H-Bomb. You wouldn't think it takes a lot of fuel, but for six years?? Yeah, it does. What we need is a Bussard ram jet (this uses a magnetic scoop to bring it hydrogen ions for the fusion reactor.)

I just remembered some details on my calculations of the trip to Alpha Centauri. I did it on my Radio Shack TRS-80. IIRC, that was the world's first home computer, with a CPU memory of 5k.

	14-04-2003 20:23									#18
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quote: Humans, especially capitalists, are notoriously cheap, and don't want to spend the time, money, or resources unless it's necessary.

You just love taking random, unfounded shots at Capitalism...

first of all, yeah I'm sure that a communist state would be just as eager to send people off into space as businessmen would be... probably non-practicable scientific advancement is what Communist countries are known for

And of course Capitalists would have no wanting to explore space if they're resources out there...

And no capitalist country ever got to the moon...

	14-04-2003 20:38									#19
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The best bet is probably generation ships, where several generations of people are born, live, and die, before the ship arrives at its destination.

Other than that, it's cryochambers or we wait until we can extend the natural lifespan a huge amount.

	14-04-2003 21:15									#20
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Speer, it's a fact of life. Does the US have the resources and technology to put 100,000 people on the moon. Yes... will it do it? NO, because it's too expensive. It's a fact of life, a byproduct of Capitalism, or any other ideology. The Soviet Union (although not really Communism) wouldn't have been able to put 100,000 people on the moon either.

Jesus Christ you just like to nit pick everything...

It isn't a knock on Capitalism, it's a fact. Could someone build a robot to cut your grass, paint your house, and vaccuum your floors? Sure, but it won't sell because it would cost too much money.

	14-04-2003 21:17									#21
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As regards traveling for 100,000 years and finding nothing there, so what? You have a self contained system, go for the next star...

Arriving at an earth type planet might be traumatic by then. The people might want to stay with what they know. It might take generations to get entirely off the ship.

	14-04-2003 21:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel why not, lancer? it has been proven to exist in other species, esp. that frog. Now all we have to do is to find out how exactly he does that, copy the needed genes into humans, and shove ourselves into a fridge.

People are much bigger than frogs, and therefore more difficult to freeze and unfreeze without forming ice crystals which damage cells. Current attyempts to cryo-perserve people use super-cold temperatures, down all the way to the point pf liquid nitrogen. The rationale behind this is that at very very cold temperatures, temperatures below that of "dry ice", ice crystal formation is greatly slowed down, and therefore it might be possible to keep a body for a period of time without having ice crystals rip it apart. The problem with that is that at such temperatures ice crystal formation is slowed down, not completely stopped, so over a period of years you'd still have crystals forming and damageing cells.
Even if it were not true that crystalization still occurs at super-cold temperatures you'd still have to contend with the problem that it takes too much time to freeze something as big as a person's body. While freezing a body from the outside there would be a gradient betweeen tissue super-frozen on the outside and tissue unfrozen on the inside. Within the transitional gradient there would be an advancing zone where the temperature was low enough to freeze, but not so low as to inhibit crystalization, and so ice crystals would form.
Sperm, ova and zygotes can be frozen because their intracellular water content is relatively low and intracellular osmols inhibit crystal formation. IIRC frogs have evolved a sort of systemic anti-freeze because they may become frozen over the winter. Could humans use the same sort of biologic anti-freeze? I don't know that much about it, but you have to remember that we're considering freezing something much longer than a few months.

	14-04-2003 21:18									#23
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It would be funny if the people got to this planet, and it's ruled by some super-powerful humanoid like species that wouldn't accomadate it's would-be colonizers.

	14-04-2003 21:22									#24
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Fusion power? Ahhh yesss, I recall that when I was a lad we were supposed to have working commercial fusion reactors providing electrical power by the 1980s.

	14-04-2003 21:25									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sava It would be funny if the people got to this planet, and it's ruled by some super-powerful humanoid like species that wouldn't accomadate it's would-be colonizers.

Or by humans that found a method for FTL travel...

Was it Heinlein who wrote a book about this?

	14-04-2003 21:32									#26
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Or, inhabited by a race that were much funnier than humans. A sense of humor much advanced...

That would be a laugh.

A bunch of colonizers wandering around feeling like stiffs, perpetual straight men for an alien civilization.

	10-05-2003 22:02									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler Fusion power is simply a controlled H-Bomb. You wouldn't think it takes a lot of fuel, but for six years?? Yeah, it does. What we need is a Bussard ram jet (this uses a magnetic scoop to bring it hydrogen ions for the fusion reactor.) I just remembered some details on my calculations of the trip to Alpha Centauri. I did it on my Radio Shack TRS-80. IIRC, that was the world's first home computer, with a CPU memory of 5k.

... and a tape recorder for data storage ! It was really exciting and fun !

BTW the energy problem of Earth should come soon on the agenda.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=0IWVSXRDXX2XICRBAELCFEY?type=reutersEdge&storyID=2716487

	10-05-2003 22:25									#28
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Big Crunch: I saw a special on TLC about using Magnetic Fields... these guys levitated a spider in a machine about the size of a small stadium. In theory, the magnetization of matter within the field would lessen the effect inertia had on acceleration; I'm not sure about stopping it. I know the term "inertial dampers" is out of the sci-fi world, but I couldn't think of anything else.

You link didn't work DAVOUT

	10-05-2003 22:48									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch WTF? Are you getting that out of a bad sci-fi story or crackpot theorist? "Magnets, the answer is always magnets".

Don't forget to reverse the polarity Commander Data!

	10-05-2003 22:51									#30
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100,000 years....

That is for Vogager...I would hope they would be able to be built a ship with the technology available today or in the near future that could substantially reduce that time-period.


The real question is:

1. Why not Mars first? Great practise.

2. What chance is there in the next few thousand years of building a ship that could over-take the one we send out now.


It would very annoying to get there after 100,000 of travel and find a ship that left 99,990 years later than you got there before you and have substantially better technology.


Personnally I don't think without cryo-technology that is far advanced from the present we could have humans subsist on a spaceship for ANYTHING close to 100,000 years. The problems of recycling, resources, mechanical failure, living in space (low gravity), society on such a ship etc would be far too unpredictable.

Ain't going to happen. If it was 0-40 years of travel, then I would think we would have a chance