15-04-2003 10:01									#31
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aatw, you're not wrong, but I'll bet you a gajillion-GS-bucks that Vox wouldn't 1) think to cut of the iron, or 2) take the chance.

	15-04-2003 10:03									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus aatw, you're not wrong, but I'll bet you a gajillion-GS-bucks that Vox wouldn't 1) think to cut of the iron, or 2) take the chance.

you're probably right. it would be a fairly advanced manuever from them

	15-04-2003 10:03									#33
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Sure I'm curious, I just don't think it's that important information. Both pop rushing and building Warriors for upgrades is going to take them about the same amount of time at this point to build troops. All we really need to know is how many are coming in the next 5-6 turns, and where from. All that really matters is how many troops they can amass in that time frame... and we don't have any way to apply any information we'd gain to alter that.

We could probably work it so that we don't miss anything, but I'd rather not bother GoW with it at this time. I think at least GF is getting a bit tired of us. Also, Vox's Galleys are more likely to be around Elipolis at this point, and the farther GoW's Galley goes in that direction the sooner it can be sunk, or at least run into a Galley on a tile it needs to check to keep us informed.

	15-04-2003 10:04									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I think Vox did some ferrying of troops around Grog on the E for some turns before attacking. They might have pop rushed at least 1 of the 4 in Dissidentville at some point (we don't have the screenshots from each turn to be absolutely sure). Not sure how many troops Vox ferried, but if they really did make a landing on BOB, that gives them 3 turns round trip to drop off 2 units, so it could very well be 10 units if they started this thing 15 turns ago. Of course the last couple drops would have been counterproductive, as the troops make it to Dissidentville faster by road, and they needed to make one drop down south... so say 6 units this way? (not sure how soon they could have started... they were average compared to us not too long back... anyone remember when?) Of course GoW could just be sending us altered screenshots...

No Galley could have made it past Grog without either being seen or risking death at sea. How probable do you think it is that they risked Immortals to death at sea?

	15-04-2003 10:04									#35
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I'm not sure I understand your idea, sleepy. Aeson makes it sound like moving our boats would deny us some potentially useful information concerning Vox's movements. Will the information gathered as a result of your idea be more important than this?


Dominae

	15-04-2003 10:10									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus aatw, you're not wrong, but I'll bet you a gajillion-GS-bucks that Vox wouldn't 1) think to cut of the iron, or 2) take the chance.

Ohh man. Not more of this, please.

Could we stow the superiority complexi prior to actually earning them?

May I remind some of us that Vox has some experienced Civers? That they can read strat threads just as well as any of us? And that hubris is a necessary ingredient in any tragedy?

What, prey tell, happens if a Bobian civ can offer them Iron on a single turn basis on any turn they care to ask for it?

	15-04-2003 10:11									#37
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Grog had no view of the coastal tiles on the E coast. It's slow, which is why I don't think Vox sent many troops that way, but they could have gotten a few Warriors and maybe even 2 Immortals around that way in the time they had.

	15-04-2003 10:12									#38
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What, prey tell happens if a Bobian civ can offer them Iron on a single turn basis on any turn they care to ask for it?

They would need Harbors for that, and I'm doubting Vox has a Harbor (or any other civ for that matter).

But I agree about underestimating Vox: we gain nothing from it.


Dominae

	15-04-2003 10:12									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I'm not sure I understand your idea, sleepy. Aeson makes it sound like moving our boats would deny us some potentially useful information concerning Vox's movements. Will the information gathered as a result of your idea be more important than this? Dominae

On vox's moves:

I would bet that the vast majority of their units are already in d'ville, otherwise its a waste, so I dont think we would lose sight of very many units.

GoW has been harbored at their spot for what, 3-4 turns now? vox won't be expecting them to move it, so they won;t know to skip the units past the galley.

We know more or less what Vox is doing with their immortals, marching them southward. If we found out that they cut their iron road to build warriors, then we would know that they are building warriors only for the upgrade. Thus, all the units at home would be warriors and very weak.

before, we were just going to cut the iron supply

if what others and myself hypothesized is true, then they have a large group of warriors at home and are waiting to upgrade all at once. WE could dart in with a galley (aided by the lighthouse for faster moves) and cut another piece of the road, thus rendering their previous however many turns of production useless.

does that make sense?

Very speculative, I know

	15-04-2003 10:12									#40
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quote: What, prey tell happens if a Bobian civ can offer them Iron on a single turn basis on any turn they care to ask for it?

Then we see the little harbor icon beside one of their cities... and we face 2 2/3rds less Immortals because they built a Harbor.

	15-04-2003 10:13									#41
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He had a great view of 3 tiles required far any galley to sneek by him without risking death at sea.

/Edit. Sorry. You said east. That'll take some time for me to digest, mainly due to our other sentries and their effects.

	15-04-2003 10:14									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae They would need Harbors for that, and I'm doubting Vox has a Harbor (or any other civ for that matter). But I agree about underestimating Vox: we gain nothing from it. Dominae

Only the offeror needs the harbour. I am pretty sure. Aside from the fact that harbours are cheap.

	15-04-2003 10:15									#43
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quote: WE could dart in with a galley (aided by the lighthouse for faster moves) and cut another piece of the road

I'm sure we'll do this ASAP regardless of whether they are upgrading or not. It helps us in any case to cut their Iron.

	15-04-2003 10:16									#44
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E coast NYE. We didn't see their Galley that dropped off the 2 Immortals did we?

	15-04-2003 10:17									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I'm sure we'll do this ASAP regardless of whether they are upgrading or not. It helps us in any case to cut their Iron.

Of course, but if the road is already cut, then we know that they have only been masssing warriors for the last however many turns, I find that info to be interesting at the very least, don't you?

Sure we would cut the iron, but if we found this out, then we should move the galleys there non stop with 2 units now, which Im not sure we were doing.

	15-04-2003 10:17									#46
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Yes. See the edit.

	15-04-2003 10:17									#47
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Only the offeror needs the harbour. I am pretty sure. Aside from the fact that harbours are cheap.

Hm, I'm pretty sure both civs need a Harbor!

Harbors are cheap? Well, for GoW, yes. But for everyone else on Bob (for anyone else in the world, actually), they're an whopping 80 Shields. That's a big investment (especially for Vox, as Aeson just pointed out).


Dominae

	15-04-2003 10:18									#48
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nye, I'm not trying to be superior...

Again, with the GW2 theme, overestimation of the enemy can be a mistake.

Allied forces get bogged down, and there are some suprises en route? It's easy for armchair generals to say, no, you got it all wrong, use the doctrine from last time... it's the safe / right thing to do.

I say: There is no way Vox has had the ability to live up to our worst fears. BUT: let's play the defensive position between Arashi and Monsoon optimally. AND: let's go on the counter-attack up the Spinebreakers ASAP, attended by a Galley action up the west coast, and keep Vox off balance... unto their death.

	15-04-2003 10:20									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Harbors are cheap? Well, for GoW, yes. But for everyone else on Bob (for anyone else in the world, actually), they're an whopping 80 Shields. That's a big investment (especially for Vox, as Aeson just pointed out). Dominae

Especially since vox can't rush a harbor (well, ok, pop rush it maybe, but their overlords can't help with that one )

	15-04-2003 10:23									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus nye, I'm not trying to be superior... Again, with the GW2 theme, overestimation of the enemy can be a mistake. Allied forces get bogged down, and there are some suprises en route? It's easy for armchair generals to say, no, you got it all wrong, use the doctrine from last time... it's the safe / right thing to do. I say: There is no way Vox has had the ability to live up to our worst fears. BUT: let's play the defensive position between Arashi and Monsoon optimally. AND: let's go on the counter-attack up the Spinebreakers ASAP, attended by a Galley action up the west coast, and keep Vox off balance... unto their death.

I agree that we should use our brains and experience(how much of it in MP?) to out manuevre them if we can.

I disagree that over estimating the oppo prior to initial contact is unwise. I would rather think it has been the reverse that has been the undoing of far more generals.

	15-04-2003 10:24									#51
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Not sure on the Harbor... I think you can use a neighbors Harbor if you have a road connection to their capitol and it, while at peace.

In any case, GoW has a Harbor, but not tradeable Iron. ND has no Harbor as of yet (only a size 2 coastal city). RP has no Harbor as of yet (only a size 4 coastal city).

In the long run it makes it more expensive for us to conquer Vox if they have Iron, but if they are relying on foreign Iron to upgrade, that means we're in control up to the Iron crossroads, and it's pretty much a done deal at that point.

	15-04-2003 10:24									#52
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Traflagar has a harbour. Any Bobian civ with road contact to GoW and is at peace with them can give Vox Iron, and Horses for that matter.

	15-04-2003 10:26									#53
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I see that Barcelona also has a harbour.

	15-04-2003 10:27									#54
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Theseus' post brings a question to my mind: will Vox assault us until they're routed (i.e. their Immortal force is almost gone), or will they stop at some point and fight for their survival. All this time we've been expecting Vox to come down towards us with most if not all of their Immortals. If they decide to take this more slowly, we're in for a long war, since we're in not position to attack them if they use their forces for defense.

Mind you, it would not have been smart of them to declare a defensive war at this point, but maybe they did not look much further ahead than the first 5 or so turns.


Dominae

	15-04-2003 10:28									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Theseus' post brings a question to my mind: will Vox assault us until they're routed (i.e. their Immortal force is almost gone), or will they stop at some point and fight for their survival. All this time we've been expecting Vox to come down towards us with most if not all of their Immortals. If they decide to take this more slowly, we're in for a long war, since we're in not position to attack them if they use their forces for defense. Mind you, it would not have been smart of them to declare a defensive war at this point, but maybe they did not look much further ahead than the first 5 or so turns. Dominae

If they have all there defenses Elipolis, that lighthouse would greatly reduce the galley transit time around the isthmus

	15-04-2003 10:29									#56
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Any Bobian civ with road contact to GoW and is at peace with them can give Vox Iron, and Horses for that matter.

That's quite a circuit, on which we can maybe take steps to interfere with.


Dominae

	15-04-2003 10:31									#57
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There should be an embassy option to spy on current trade deals. I guess thats something that makes SP a lot easier, the ability to see who has active trades with whom.


(That beautiful save just sitting there. ahh. I suppose Nathan and ???? have to sleep or have an outside life. )

	15-04-2003 10:35									#58
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel If they have all there defenses Elipolis, that lighthouse would greatly reduce the galley transit time around the isthmus.

If they do play this defensively, I doubt very much that we're going to "surprise" them by bringing forces around the isthmus. If they instead commit their Immortals, sailing around the isthmus will not be all that important, since we can expect to have won the war by defeating their Immortal stacks in our lands.

If we had a bunch of Galleys and most of our forces ready right now, I would say the Great Lighthouse could be useful to us. But it is obvious that most of the fighting will be occurring in our lands in the next few turns, if at all.


Dominae

	15-04-2003 10:36									#59
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I just tested... and both civs need harbor access for any resource trading.

All I have to go by as far as the othe rcivs are what gets posted in screenshots... it's good to know which civs have harbors, thanks.

	15-04-2003 10:36									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If they do play this defensively, I doubt very much that we're going to "surprise" them by bringing forces around the isthmus. If they instead commit their Immortals, sailing around the isthmus will not be all that important, since we can expect to have won the war by defeating their Immortal stacks in our lands. If we had a bunch of Galleys and most of our forces ready right now, I would say the Great Lighthouse could be useful to us. But it is obvious that most of the fighting will be occurring in our lands in the next few turns, if at all. Dominae

I agree. that post was mainly in jest anyway, I've been a bit of a broken record lately, you know