16-04-2003 05:58									#31
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read up on Rhodesia if you want to learn about raping and pillaging ppl

	16-04-2003 05:59									#32
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quote: IMHO, Western civilization, with its respect for human rights, democracy and the family, and its emphasis on education for all, is worth spreading to more "primitive" cultures.

Western interest in human rights and democracy is very recent development. Furthermore, family is not at all strong in Western culture, compared to the extended families found in other cultures.

I think that had Africa, India and China been left alone to a greater extent, they would have eventually found a way to work Western ideas into their cultures, whilst retaining enough cultural uniqueness to keep them happy.

	16-04-2003 06:00									#33
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British imperialism led to the creation of the USA, so yet overall it was good for the world.

	16-04-2003 06:00									#34
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oh goodie I will so quickly read up on it then I'll come back and agree w/ u cuz it invalidates all my points.

or maybe not.

=D tho, even tho ur kind of a hater.

	16-04-2003 06:02									#35
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dont player h8 congradulate

	16-04-2003 06:07									#36
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon wut a random useless comment ted. so the african continent was only held back by the fact it didnt have a bigger gun? sounds like a great place to me.

Not bigger guns. A complete overhaul of the political structure which has let the Africans clueless, and prone to do much, much ****. How can you expect a continent whose most important leaders had a few hundred people under their authority to become managed like a modern country, where leadership is highly abstract ?
The newly appointed presidents have acted like tribal chiefs (and not necessarily skilled), and have shamelessly favored their home tribe at the loss of everyone else.

It took Millenia to European to learn living with an abstract power structure, yet the Africans should have mastered it overnight.

We don't have given them better guns. We have completely destroyed all their reality, and left them clueless in a de facto "modern world" they knew nothing about. They'll eventually learn how to rule a modern country, but it will take several generations, at best.

	16-04-2003 06:09									#37
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Spiff knows his stuff.

	16-04-2003 06:10									#38
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quote: yes the british imperialism sucked for lots of reasons, but when its all sed and done the british did a few things that have had long term benefits.

the idea of order, the introduction of education, and the obvious introduction of labor. that have had risidual effects that weren't planned but it doesn't make them ne less nice.

realize the places that spain/the dutch imperialized in general turned out considerably worse. since they were more about raping/pillaging. the british definitely had a moral mandate to their imperialism, whether its looked on kindly now or not.

British 'education' was largely an attempt to destroy the culture of the African people and mold them into archetypical subjects of the British empire. They viewed African culture similarly to the way you do: barbaric and backward. They therefore attempted to get rid of it.

The 'introduction of labor' that you speak of was hardly necessary. Most, if not all African tribes had some concept of this (agriculturally, anyway).

In terms of 'raping and pillaging', they did, just in a more sereptitious fashion. The British were able to identify and arrest key dissenters within the tribes, thus preventing rebellion. In addition, they were expert at providing the tribes with just enough to keep them content. In this way, they were able to extract most of a country's resources without appearing overly brutal.

edit: added quote to clarify.

	16-04-2003 06:11									#39
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Monkspider :
All European colonialism has been a major disaster for mankind. The British one is the most important, but the Spanish, French and Dutch didn't do any better, and often did worse.

Shi :
Was that a troll or genuine bigotism ?

	16-04-2003 06:14									#40
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it seems to me its a lot like it was before only now the weapons are a lot better and ppl realize they can be more power hungry.

I hardly feel bad that what was holding them back before was merely the opportunity.

	16-04-2003 06:18									#41
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Yavoon :
You have obviously understood nothing to what was Africa before the colonization. If the only thing you are able to put up against my arguments are one-liner misconceptions, I think it is time to end this argument.

	16-04-2003 06:18									#42
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kirn I hardly think the british were altruistic, nevertheless they were inadvertently given some of the basic tools needed to survive in todays world.

I think one pt to make clear is I'm not all that big of a cultural relativist. this is to include the way western culture use to be. but the thing is western culture purposefully or not had built in it ways to change. others usually did not.

and I am not gna condone repression or abuse on either side just cuz one was doing it longer or it is supposedly part of their tradition

	16-04-2003 06:21									#43
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k bye spiffor=D

	16-04-2003 06:24									#44
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I wasn't challenging British altruism; I was challenging your assertion that the British provided the Africans with anything useful. Technology, perhaps, but not the necessary moral guidance to use it in a constructive way. The same sort of pattern can be seen in the occupation of Germany by Napoleonic France. Sure, Germany industrialized and unified afterward, but the Nazis were a direct result. I'm not talking about cultural relativism either. The effect is cross-cultural.

	16-04-2003 06:31									#45
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didnt I just hear that the british attempted to impose their morality on the tribes? and weren't their lots of missionaries in british colonies? they subsequently brought some concept of literacy which is of course one of the singular most important things to a functioning society.

I mean generally we dont like either I understand, but I dont think that constitutes lack of moral guidance. gotta be careful I'm not condoning the british in imposing their will. I'm just pointing out it had benefits.

	16-04-2003 06:44									#46
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The Africans already had an Oral tradition, and, given time, would likely have developed a written language on their own. The British interfered with the natural development of the continent without stopping to consider that perhaps these people weren't ready for the 'wonders' of western civilization.

	16-04-2003 06:47									#47
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quote: Technology, perhaps, but not the necessary moral guidance to use it in a constructive way.

That's an interesting argument K-man. Perhaps the British should have stayed longer to ensure the proper transfer and self-determination of the former British colonies.

Look at some of these colonies:

1. Canada. One of the G-7 nations, transformed from a backwater French colony into one of the most democratic nations on Earth.

2. USA Strongest economy in the world, extremely strong trade connections with Britain, even after the revolution.

3. Australia
Not one of the strongest economies, but much better off since colonisation.

4. New Zealand
Same, much better off after colonialisation than before. Even the Maori population is rebounding.

5. Singapore
Economic powerhouse for such a small Island

6. Hong Kong
Very similar to Singapore.

7. India
The lot of you want to pin the blame for Pakistan on the British. This is incorrect as the British kept the Muslim and Hindu factions together. The Muslims preferred British rule to Hindu, and the Hindus preferred British rule to Muslim control, as had been the case under the Mughal empire. Once India gained independence, the Muslim factions feared the Hindu rule, and voted for a partition. This partition was approved by Gandhi just before the British handed India over, setting the stage for the massive bloodshed that continues today.

8. South Africa
Again, the British left too soon. The country is a mess now, but before was considered to be the only bright spot in Africa.

9. Malaysia
Economically starting to turn the corner and industrialise. Much more stable than Indonesia.

10. Egypt
Suez canal construction.

The list goes on.

Compare this to any other European imperialist power. Can they claim any list even close to comparable with the British Empire?

	16-04-2003 06:50									#48
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quote: IMHO, Western civilization, with its respect for human rights, democracy and the family, and its emphasis on education for all, is worth spreading to more "primitive" cultures.

IMHO, Western civilization, with its respect to brutal capitalization, communism, and the broken family, and its emphasis on the almighty dollar as god, is responsible for butchering many more "primitive" cultures.

quote: I am willing to bet that those who here believe in the equal validity of all cutlures were anti-war on Iraq; while those who believe in the value of Western culture are pro-war

not true. i believe in the value of western culture, but that's because i'm a product of it.

but i honestly think that east asia is a lot worse off because of the Western notions of rampant capitalism/industrialization (resulting in the desecration and destruction of many regions of the environment), the broken family (korea has one of the highest rates of divorce now), the consumerism (resulting in a much less family-oriented atmosphere in korea and a harsher environment), communism (nkorea and china--nuff said)...
indeed, it was westernization that led japan on its little jaunt all over east asia.
it was westernization that resulted in the opium wars and the boxer rebellion.

before you say it's worth spreading western ideals over "primitive" cultures roughshod, remember the cost and the brutality that resulted in its wake.

indeed, thinking of these cultures as "primitive" is dangerous, because it dehumanizes them and places us above them simply because we think we are more advanced.

family in east asia was once based on the confucian ideal. meaning no elder was cast out and sent to one of those "retirement homes". people felt loyalty to their family and saw themselves as one with it, rather than as a piece of it.

quote: the idea of order, the introduction of education, and the obvious introduction of labor. that have had risidual effects that weren't planned but it doesn't make them ne less nice.

confucian order worked amazingly well in asia for a good long time. it was only when allowed to run to excesses did it begin to bog down everything. education also existed in asia a good long time. labor also existed as a concept in asia.

quote: You have obviously understood nothing to what was Africa before the colonization. If the only thing you are able to put up against my arguments are one-liner misconceptions, I think it is time to end this argument.

spiff, you're not alone in feeling this way. the argument style in question lacks any sort of academic or logical rigor.

	16-04-2003 06:51									#49
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yes they definitely didnt stop to consider whether or not they were ready. and given the exponential advancement after writing was developed, and THAT was several thousand years ago.

I'd say that given their own pace africa would have no made no noticable progress by itself over the past 300 years. I also dont see any mechanism for their society to introduce ne kind of social change

I am not a fortune teller but ne contact w/ the wests technology even w/o imperialism would have lead to certain tribes attempting to gain fire arms to invade other tribes. and hell isnt that going on right now?!

	16-04-2003 06:52									#50
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i will grant, however, british imperialism was a lot les destructive than other nations'.

this doesn't necessarily make it right, however. it's a moot point now, since it was done in the past. what do you want, an apology? take it and move on, and learn from those horrid mistakes.

	16-04-2003 06:53									#51
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It gave birth to the US. Given that, I'd say that it was an unqualified boon to the world.

	16-04-2003 06:57									#52
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at the cost of millions of dead non-whites.

	16-04-2003 07:01									#53
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Remember that the "success" seen in settler colonies like Canada, the US, Australia, New Zeland, etc. came about by exterminating/marginalizing indigenous populations. The only reason these areas can be defined as successful imperialism is because they essentially ripped up a little part of Europe and transplanted it with no regards for the natives. You'd see the same thing if Europeans moved en masse into Africa, almost totally eliminating the locals and setting up shop. It doesn't necessarily make it "successful" in any sense other than making another new Britain.

	16-04-2003 07:01									#54
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Qcubed:

quote: (korea has one of the highest rates of divorce now)

Can we confine ourselves to a discussion of British imperialism? Korea was never a British colony.

Imperialism in general has had poor effects, but what about British Imperialism in particular?

quote: this doesn't necessarily make it right, however. it's a moot point now, since it was done in the past. what do you want, an apology? take it and move on, and learn from those horrid mistakes.

I'm not saying that the British were 'less bad' I'm saying that they markedly more successful. Look at my list! Would the world be better off without any of these nations? Far from horrid mistakes, they left their colonies in better shape when they left, then before they arrived.

	16-04-2003 07:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed at the cost of millions of dead non-whites.

Party pooper.

	16-04-2003 07:07									#56
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quote: I'm not saying that the British were 'less bad' I'm saying that they markedly more successful. Look at my list! Would the world be better off without any of these nations? Far from horrid mistakes, they left their colonies in better shape when they left, then before they arrived.

i admit later that the british were the least of the evils, didn't i?

	16-04-2003 07:07									#57
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quote: Remember that the "success" seen in settler colonies like Canada, the US, Australia, New Zeland, etc. came about by exterminating/marginalizing indigenous populations.

Not true, at least in the case for the British.
Most of the deaths of indigenous peoples came about from smallpox. This is unavoidable with european contact.

Could you please cite an example of the British slaughtering indigenous peoples?

quote: The only reason these areas can be defined as successful imperialism is because they essentially ripped up a little part of Europe and transplanted it with no regards for the natives.

Lots of stuff in Canada comes from the natives. In order for people to survive, they had to adopt the ways of the land.

quote: You'd see the same thing if Europeans moved en masse into Africa, almost totally eliminating the locals and setting up shop. It doesn't necessarily make it "successful" in any sense other than making another new Britain.

Four counterexamples:

Hong Kong
Singapore
Malaysia
India

Hardly majority white people, yet these former colonies are thriving.

	16-04-2003 07:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Look at my list! Would the world be better off without any of these nations? Far from horrid mistakes, they left their colonies in better shape when they left, then before they arrived.

Well, the thing is : they haven't left this place yet...

	16-04-2003 07:13									#59
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quote: Can we confine ourselves to a discussion of British imperialism? Korea was never a British colony.

that was actually targeted at the notion that "western culture" was superior to "primitive culture"s.

	16-04-2003 07:19									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed at the cost of millions of dead non-whites.

If they had not driven the natives into a corner, there would be no University of Chicago.

Cynical or not, Native Americans would have never, ever created a great nation such as USA.

I would rather have USA dominating the world than any of those xenophobic and hypocritical European countries.