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Kontiki
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Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Not true, at least in the case for the British.
Most of the deaths of indigenous peoples came about from smallpox. This is unavoidable with european contact.
Could you please cite an example of the British slaughtering indigenous peoples? |
But in the end, it's the same thing, isn't it? The local population gets killed off or pushed to the margins. Whether intentional or not, it still has the same net effect. And the Brits (and their decendants) certainly pushed the remaining natives to the periphery in almost every settler colony.
quote:
Lots of stuff in Canada comes from the natives. In order for people to survive, they had to adopt the ways of the land. |
There was a certain adoption of "the ways of the land", but again, in the end (but even before independence), what did these colonies more closely resemble, the pre-colonial areas, or Britain? White settlers used European farming and manufacturing techniques on lands once occupied by natives. Hardly much of an adoption of local methods.
quote:
Four counterexamples:
Hong Kong
Singapore
Malaysia
India
Hardly majority white people, yet these former colonies are thriving. |
Granted, successful, although definitely in the minority. Still, it needs to be noted that while not settler colonies, Singapore and Hong Kong benefitted greatly from being pretty closed city-states.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:27
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Why are you guys focused on Africa? Think Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Pakistan, New Zealand, Australia, a lot of Islands in the Carribean, Canada, and even the Imperialist Americans.
BTW, what were the British colonies in Africa? South Africa and Rhodesia. What else?
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cinch
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:27
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quote:
Cynical or not, Native Americans would have never, ever created a great nation such as USA. |
Whaaaaaaaat?
Define 'great'.
The Iroquois people, pre-colonisation, had one of the most democratic and 'civilised' (not in technology, but I'd argue that that's not the sole measurement of culture) systems on the planet.
Most Native tribes just had a different idea of 'progress', as compared to the Europeans. How does this make them inferior?
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by orange
and we can stop right here. The spread of British Imperialism was done with respect for Human Rights?? |
At least the British didn't execute people by "Death by Thousand Cuts", "Impalement", "Drawing Quarter", and etc...
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by obiwan18
Che:
Including the construction of a railroad system, and improvements in irrigation? These two improvements transformed localised grain shortages from famines to feasts. |
As I wrote, it was a mixed "blessing." You can't merely point to one aspect and say, it's good or bad. It was both a disaster and a necessary improvement.
The immediate result of British imperialsm was a massive downturn in the incomes of the locals. This state of affairs continued up until very recently in the case of India, and still continues today in Africa and the Middle East.
Where famines were localized before, they became generalized. Millians starved not because they were struck by drought, plague, or flood, but because some European drove them off their land. The increase in food production didn't profit the locals, who had lost the means to produce or purchase their food, but profitted Europe, who could now buy cheaper grain and coffee and tea.
British imperialism fairly well wrecked most of the old world. That was both a good and bad thing. It also brought capitalism and the Enlightenment to the rest of the world. This means that these countries now have the opportunity to create for themselves Western standards of living.
Of course, nothing is ever so simple. Imperialism defines the way capitalism grows in the colonial world, and the development there is not for the home market but for the needs of the First World. This is why it has been very difficult for former colonies to develop. Only a handful have done it. On top of this, dictators who were/are politically subservient to the interests of the West also tended to be (as dicatators so often do) rather corrupt, plundering their countries. For examples we need only look at Marcos in the Philippines who made off with $10 billion or Mbutu in Zaire, who even stopped paying his soldiers towards the end of his regime, or Somoza, who stole the relief money sent to help Nicaragua after the massive 1974 earthquake. Yes, they were S.O.B.s, but they were our S.O.B.s.
The silver lining in all this is that by bringing the world together into under capitalism, the way is cleared for the development of socialism.
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Ozz
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Canada
Mar 2002
time: 05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara The immediate result of British imperialsm was a massive downturn in the incomes of the locals. This state of affairs continued up until very recently in the case of India, and still continues today in Africa and the Middle East. |
Thats if they had incomes.
Are you actually saying that the common man was
better off under the Rajahs? with their thuggie,
water borne dieases, famines and petty wars and
almost non-existant trade. Not to mention their
jewels, palaces and autocratic rule. I won't even
begin with Africa and it's slavery, cannibalism and
famines.
Yup, real paradises they had before the British
came.
One thing i have noticed, the longer the British
stayed, the less of a basketcase the countries
are today.
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Lord Merciless
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It should be: the better a colony learned the British ways, the better they are off now. Of all the colonies that weren't colonized by the British, Hong Kong and Singapore learnt the most and are the most well off.
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yago
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The moral values of the British slave trader:
An Account of the Slave Trade on the Coast of Africa (London, 1788).
Upon the Negroes refusing to take sustenance, I have seen coals of fire, glowing hot, put on a shovel and placed so near their lips as to scorch and burn them. And this has been accompanied with threats of forcing them to swallow the coals if they any longer persisted in refusing to eat. These means have generally had the desired effect. I have also been credibly informed that a certain captain in the slave- trade, poured melted lead on such of his Negroes as obstinately refused their food.
On board some ships the common sailors are allowed to have intercourse with such of the black women whose consent they can procure. And some of them have been known to take the inconstancy of their paramours so much to heart as to leap overboard and drown themselves. The officers are permitted to indulge their passions among them at pleasure and sometimes are guilty of such excesses as disgrace human nature....
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:27
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quote:
It depends on how you define improved the world. India, the Middle East, and Africa were absolutely destroyed by British imperialism, but North America and Oceania did quite well. In addition, Britain spead capitalism throughout the world, sweeping feudalism and other primative economies aside, building up the productive forces of humanity, and laying the groundwork for socialism. |
Almost completely agree.
Thing is, we forget that the amount of cruelty that was used by the british is very much on par with any cruelty that would've been practiced there in any case, as a built-in part of systems that ruled many of those places.
It also caused the emergence of the US that was home to the creation of countless technological improvements, that made living much easier to everyone, even in the poorest of nations.
So I would put a '+' mark. Not a huge one, but still a plus mark.
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