18-04-2003 10:39									#31
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quote: No one's jumped up and down screaming and Bible thumping yet

You rang?

quote: Gay marriage is about equal rights, giving gays what's given to straights and taken for granted by most of them. It doesn't make people become gay, if that's what you're worried about, but it makes the gay people's lives less miserable.

Depends on how you define marriage whether or not Gays can or can not be married. The general term is gay union to demonstrate the difference between the two.

In Canada the current policy is to allow common-law relationships to be treated the same way for straights and gays.

I think this is the best way, allow gays to be recognised on par with common-law relationships but do not allow them to be married.

	18-04-2003 10:43									#32
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Tell you what to think, Speer?

Back gay marriages. Why deny them it that right? Then after that go after silly laws against Polygamy and other dumb marriage restrictions (age is the only one that is valid, IMO).

	18-04-2003 10:43									#33
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Obi-Wan:

Whats the difference? Marriage is a religious covenent... it's up to the various denominations to determine if gay marriage is an oxymoron or not.

	18-04-2003 10:46									#34
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Imran:

Excuse me? Polygamy? I am not going to condone marriages that are inherently men taking advantage of women with low self-esteem and psychological problems.

	18-04-2003 10:46									#35
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Depends on how you define marriage whether or not Gays can or can not be married. The general term is gay union to demonstrate the difference between the two. In Canada the current policy is to allow common-law relationships to be treated the same way for straights and gays. I think this is the best way, allow gays to be recognised on par with common-law relationships but do not allow them to be married.

But there is no difference, that's the whole point. Gays and straights are the same thing! They're all just humans!

	18-04-2003 10:48									#36
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quote: Excuse me? Polygamy? I am not going to condone marriages that are inherently men taking advantage of women with low self-esteem and psychological problems.

Nice to know you have no preconcieved notions about the issue.

	18-04-2003 10:53									#37
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quote: Whats the difference? Marriage is a religious covenent... it's up to the various denominations to determine if gay marriage is an oxymoron or not.

BINGO

That's the key for Canada at least. To force a church to marry two people who are gay violates freedom of conscience and religion, under section 3 of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Lorizael:

quote: Gays and straights are the same thing! They're all just humans!

How is it a human rights issue whether or not two gay people are married in a church? Legally, their relationship is already recognised by the government as common law.

	18-04-2003 10:57									#38
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Lookit that gay guy in obiwan's avatar!!!! WHoo!!!

	18-04-2003 10:58									#39
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Not all marriages are religious in nature.

	18-04-2003 11:11									#40
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quote: Lookit that gay guy in obiwan's avatar!!!! WHoo!!!

Glad you approve.

Just don't be getting all hung up over the pic.

quote: Not all marriages are religious in nature.

Lorizael:

What are the differences between a secular marriage and a common law relationship here in Canada? Not much. Not much to fight for here in Canada in terms of jumping up from a common law relationship to a secular marriage.

	18-04-2003 11:13									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Obi-Wan: Whats the difference? Marriage is a religious covenent... it's up to the various denominations to determine if gay marriage is an oxymoron or not.

Why do religious people almost ALWAYS think marriage is an invention of their religion?

"Marriage," as we understand this concept, it originated as a way of cementing a good relationship between two powers, be they kingdoms or influential families. It's a legal contract, a Human invention, not a Law of Nature or Commandment from God.

	18-04-2003 11:14									#42
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It's part of making society see that gays are equal. If gays are forced to do something different - even if it is different only in name - then they will still be seen as different by the rest of society.

And where this is difference, there is discrimination, and hate, and violence.

Common law relationships in Canada (I live in the US, btw, where only one state has something like that), is most certainly an improvement, but it ain't there yet.

	18-04-2003 11:16									#43
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quote: 2) Gay marriages should not be allowed because gay marriages create the idea of 'alternative' families that is what has now legitimized dead-beat fathers and all this bullshit today. If you take away the ideal of a husband and wife and their children then maybe no one will ever seek this ideal. Therefore, family would be harmed by gay marriages.

Who the **** taught you this bullshit?

	18-04-2003 11:16									#44
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quote: If gays are forced to do something different - even if it is different only in name - then they will still be seen as different by the rest of society.

Suppose they are given the right to marry. Every single one of the churches will ask for the right not to marry gay people, because it violates their religion. So we will be back to square 1, no different from where we are now.

	18-04-2003 11:21									#45
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 BINGO That's the key for Canada at least. To force a church to marry two people who are gay violates freedom of conscience and religion, under section 3 of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Do you understand the difference between forcing churches to marry gays and allowing churches to legally marry gays?

	18-04-2003 11:21									#46
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But in time, as the churches are filled with newer generations, they will come to accept the common belief in society that gays are people, too, and they will give up their outmoded ways. Things will never change, however, if someone doesn't make a change.

	18-04-2003 11:22									#47
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Suppose they are given the right to marry. Every single one of the churches will ask for the right not to marry gay people, because it violates their religion. So we will be back to square 1, no different from where we are now.

Absolute nonsense -- there are several churches that are extremely gay-friendly, and if given the legal right to marry gays, they certainly would.

I'm not saying all churches should be forced to marry gays, that's a strawman.

I am saying gays should be allowed to be legally married, should any specific church want to do it.

	18-04-2003 11:34									#48
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DRoseDars:

quote: "Marriage," as we understand this concept, it originated as a way of cementing a good relationship between two powers, be they kingdoms or influential families. It's a legal contract, a Human invention, not a Law of Nature or Commandment from God.

Then why do people get married in churches if the church has nothing to do with the institution of marriage here in the west?

For people who are religious, marriage is far more than a simple 'legal contract.' It is a promise not only to your partner, but to God as well, to live in a relationship that he has sanctioned beforehand. This is the problem with the concept of gay marriage if one defines marriage as the union between a man and a woman.

Also, you can 'cement a good relationship' within the common law framework.

quote: Do you understand the difference between forcing churches to marry gays and allowing churches to legally marry gays?

What if the church does not want to marry gay people? What happens then?

Lorizael:

quote: But in time, as the churches are filled with newer generations, they will come to accept the common belief in society that gays are people, too, and they will give up their outmoded ways. Things will never change, however, if someone doesn't make a change.

Well, that argument cuts both ways. Younger people in Canada are generally more conservative. This goes for the US as well. Your window of opportunity is closing.

	18-04-2003 11:35									#49
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I disagree with it.

Asher is, right me and my girlfriend accidently went to a Gay Southern Babtist Church (Of all Denominations) in Raliegh, NC while I was attending NC State. It seemed normal enough at first until she noticed that the choir was called Raleigh All Gay Choir...at first I didn't believe it until I started looking around and saw guys holding guys and girls holding girls. We decided to ride it out and finish the sermon but before the Paster started speaking two very gay ballerina dancers got on stage and started dancing with each other....we left immidiately.

	18-04-2003 11:41									#50
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Asher:

Couple points:

I assume you are referring to Bishop Ingham.

It is correct to say that several churches do approve, but no one denomination does so on the whole, or even the majority.

What you have is a few dissident churches, ostracised within their individual denominations.

Again, I ask, what happens if a gay person is refused to be married by a particular church if they are given the legal right to be married? Would the church have to accomodate the marriage?

	18-04-2003 11:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Again, I ask, what happens if a gay person is refused to be married by a particular church if they are given the legal right to be married? Would the church have to accomodate the marriage?

Why would they, if it's a private institution?

Churches have a right to be ignorant, backwards, and generally offensive -- they've been doing it for as long as they've been around, and they've perfected it.

If some churches refuse to marry a gay couple, the gay couple probably doesn't want anything to do with that church anyway and will find one who accepts them as they are and not as what other people want of them.

	18-04-2003 11:52									#52
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Glad to hear Asher.

What's the problem with common-law status here in Canada?

	18-04-2003 12:08									#53
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Domestic partnerships -

Gay marriage -

	18-04-2003 12:15									#54
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Obi:
My mom and stepdad searched for six weeks for someone to marry them (legally) who'd be willing to leave out the religious (specifically, Christian) aspects of the ceremony. They finally just went with someone at the Washoe County Courthouse. Notice that it isn't a church.

Drake:
EDIT: Retracted.

Last edited by DRoseDARs on 18-04-2003 at 12:32

	18-04-2003 12:24									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Domestic partnerships - Gay marriage -

Why maintain the distinction? Because marriage is supposedly "religious"? I have no problem with marriage being considered a sacrament, but it should then have absolutely no civic implications -- much like baptism. That means that, under your idea, any couple joined in a civil ceremony, whether straight or gay, should be considered a domestic partnership, not a marriage; and that any legal or other advantages that accrue to married couples accrue as well to domestic partners. Do that, and the churches can have marriage all to themselves.

	18-04-2003 12:28									#56
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quote: Drake: Eff you.

Why? I support equal rights for gay couples; I just don't want to change the meaning of the term "marriage" when much of society is opposed to that change.

quote: I have no problem with marriage being considered a sacrament, but it should then have absolutely no civic implications -- much like baptism. That means that, under your idea, any couple joined in a civil ceremony, whether straight or gay, should be considered a domestic partnership, not a marriage; and that any legal or other advantages that accrue to married couples accrue as well to domestic partners. Do that, and the churches can have marriage all to themselves.

Sounds good to me.

	18-04-2003 12:30									#57
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to Rufus.

I think semantics has overtaken an argument yet again. It seems to be all about how one defines 'marriage'.

But I like what Rufus said: Make everything a domestic partnership, with equal rights, and let the churches keep the word 'marriage'.

	18-04-2003 12:32									#58
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Drake, the religious are the ones who've changed "marriage." It's a legal contract that they've attached their meanings to.

I retract my "eff you" but I still disagree with you.



It's getting late and I have class in 8 hours. G'nite all.

	20-04-2003 03:13									#59
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Marriage is a tradition common to many cultures and many religions. What we are talking about is making gay marriage recognized by the government and employers with regard to benefits, taxes and other secular concerns.

Many view marriage as a sacrament or seek the blessings of the church on their marriage. Religious leaders are given the authority to perform this legal act/cerimony in addition to others, like a justice of the peace or the captain of a ship but this is a legal cerimony with legal consequences. Churches and pastors can refuse any couple seeking marriage in their church and often do. Catholics have a rigorous councilling process and many priests will not marry mixes faith couples.

Legalizing and recognizing same sex marriage will not force churches to bend their rules, but certainly some will change to accept it. Gay couples always have secular options if religious ones are not available, but I expect more churches will be performing these marriages.

	20-04-2003 03:26									#60
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OK, I'll bite.

Some may find it impossible to believe, but there ARE gay-friendly churches, which are perectly normal (note 'gay friendly' does not equal 'gay') and would be perfectly willing to marry same-sex couples were they given the legal right to.

Other countries (such as Holland) have had same-sex marraiges for a while now, with no negative effect.

Besides, why are people assuming every marraige is Christian?