18-04-2003 07:12									#1
	Tell me what to think (the issue of gay marriages) Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My main concern is the re-creation of families in America as I feel that if we re-create families we won't have any problems.

Gay marriages though have always perplexed me and I have switched back and forth (maybe some people here remember) between being in favour of them and being against. I've come to two conclusions though...

1) Gay marriages should be allowed because love is rare in today's world and those that truly love each other and wish to have that divine union of marriage should definintely be allowed to be married. If they will love a child and raise him properly then they should be allowed to adopt children. Thus, family would be aided by allowing for gay marriages.

2) Gay marriages should not be allowed because gay marriages create the idea of 'alternative' families that is what has now legitimized dead-beat fathers and all this bullshit today. If you take away the ideal of a husband and wife and their children then maybe no one will ever seek this ideal. Therefore, family would be harmed by gay marriages.

What do yall think? Can this be resolved?


thanks

	18-04-2003 07:21									#2
	Re: Tell me what to think (the issue of gay marriages) Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer 2) Gay marriages should not be allowed because gay marriages create the idea of 'alternative' families that is what has now legitimized dead-beat fathers and all this bullshit today. If you take away the ideal of a husband and wife and their children then maybe no one will ever seek this ideal. Therefore, family would be harmed by gay marriages.

"Legitimized" dead-beat fathers?

Gay marriages do add to the idea of alternative families, but your connection between "alternative" and "piece of sh!t losers who ought to be publically flogged" is flawed. Allowing gay marriages most certainly WILL NOT make everyone want to go gay and abandon traditional families. Again, flawed.

But good for you that you're asking yourself these questions and actually THINKING about them instead of making snap judgments and spouting vitrol.

	18-04-2003 07:24									#3
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Albert, never let anyone tell you what to think, use your head for something more than keeping your ears apart.

It's okay to ask opinions, but you have to make the decision.

I have no problem with gay marriages. Let homosexuals have the same chance to screw up their lives as heterosexuals.



ACK!

	18-04-2003 07:26									#4
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no it won't make everyone become gay but it will open up the idea of other kinds of alternative families that may be harmful... also just the idea that there can be more than a husband and wife seems to spurn on ideas that family doesn't matter and that males shouldn't give a damn about their kids or their kid's mothers.

then again... love is love and anywhere that it exists... it should be cherished and allowed to grow. so i dont know

	18-04-2003 07:37									#5
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@ Tuberski

AS: Let me try it this way, most marriages (gay or straight) are based on the idea of joining 2 consenting adults. If an individual in the couple is caught cheating on the other spouse, that marriage my suffer, even end. Most people aren't comfortable with the idea of letting other people into the one-on-one relationship when married.

The practice of having multiple husbands/wives pre-dates written word, so why aren't most marriages multiple partner marriages (religious and Human laws aside)?

	18-04-2003 07:43									#6
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DRose:

Multiple partner marriages were never common. At most, the elite in a community would have a small harem (hell, sultans had hundreds of women in their harem) but the vast majority (99%) had single partner marriages.

but your point doesn't change what i said... gay marriages still bring in the idea of alternative families that can jeopardize the idea of responsible families.

(don't think though that i have sold myself on anti-gay marriage though... as soon as a anti-gay marriage person comes here (maybe Lincoln?) I'll be attacking him)

	18-04-2003 07:47									#7
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(And I'd be cheering you on... )

Ok, but what is your definition of a "responsible" family? I think most people have similar ideas, but for the purpose of discussion...

	18-04-2003 07:55									#8
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Adults who care about each other and their kids and provide for their kids.

of course, gays who want to be married and have kids will most likely fulfil that criteria. still, there's a risk that just coming up with the idea that different kind of families aside from the standard man-woman nuclear family are legit might cause problems... people may no longer seek the modern ideal of husband/wife families and instead we'll have even more problems with single parents and divorces and whatever other crazy alternative families.

	18-04-2003 07:56									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer no it won't make everyone become gay but it will open up the idea of other kinds of alternative families that may be harmful... also just the idea that there can be more than a husband and wife seems to spurn on ideas that family doesn't matter and that males shouldn't give a damn about their kids or their kid's mothers. then again... love is love and anywhere that it exists... it should be cherished and allowed to grow. so i dont know

I understand what ur saying I think.

Basically you're saying that if there is an alternative form of marriage that is accepted, then you're afraid that the traditional view of "marriage" will be challenged more often and people will come up with all sorts of "experimental form" that is horrible and doomed to fail?

	18-04-2003 07:57									#10
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quote: 1) Gay marriages should be allowed because love is rare in today's world and those that truly love each other and wish to have that divine union of marriage should definintely be allowed to be married. If they will love a child and raise him properly then they should be allowed to adopt children. Thus, family would be aided by allowing for gay marriages.

amen. the child is the crux of any family, and parents must always have an active part, be they of differing or of the same gender.

quote: 2) Gay marriages should not be allowed because gay marriages create the idea of 'alternative' families that is what has now legitimized dead-beat fathers and all this bullshit today. If you take away the ideal of a husband and wife and their children then maybe no one will ever seek this ideal. Therefore, family would be harmed by gay marriages.

honestly, i think it's more the fact that divorce is too easy to obtain that has eroded what we call family values. although there are many instances where divorce should be imperative (e.g., abuse, child welfare), a reason such as "i just don't love him anymore" doesn't fvcking cut it if you've got a bouncing baby or a bright young kid who still doesn't know how harsh the world really is.

in essence, it boils down to this: anybody can get married. but if you have a child, you better fcking stay married, be it through hell or highwater, so long as you take care of that kid.

	18-04-2003 07:58									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs (And I'd be cheering you on... ) Ok, but what is your definition of a "responsible" family? I think most people have similar ideas, but for the purpose of discussion...

"Family" doesnt even have to be a family. Sometimes people find home in gangs, fellow orphans... (example may not be a good example of family, but perhaps it can be..)

That one above kinda sounded like Azazel.

	18-04-2003 08:00									#12
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Gay marriages are completely unrelated to you living in a shithole, Speery.

Here's one little argument that demolish any idea of being anti-gay marriage/pro-family: People do not become gay just because gay marriages are legal. Rather, it allows people to be who they really are an enjoy the same benefits as couples that happen to be attracted to the opposite sex rather than the same sex. It does not destroy the concept of a family, which is loving and supportive parents, as long as the parents are loving and supporting. Which genitals the parents have is rather moot. If anything, I'd go as far as saying society is better off having gay men living in gay marriages rather than unhappily living a lie as a straight man (where much of homophobia comes from, which certainly hurts society).

Gay marriage is about equal rights, giving gays what's given to straights and taken for granted by most of them. It doesn't make people become gay, if that's what you're worried about, but it makes the gay people's lives less miserable.

	18-04-2003 08:04									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer no it won't make everyone become gay but it will open up the idea of other kinds of alternative families that may be harmful.

He already said this asher.

	18-04-2003 08:06									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II He already said this asher.

He said it, but he doesn't get it.

	18-04-2003 08:10									#15
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Calc II knows what I'm saying...


Asher:

I'm not concerned with rights... i'm concerned with the good of the general society and the re-creation of loving families... re-read what Calc said as that's my position


Q Cubed:

yes divorces are a major reason for decline in family... i'm concerned about even further decline


thanks

	18-04-2003 08:11									#16
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what he is worried about is challenging the traditional idea of marriage, not gay marriage really.

he says gay marriage is okay, actually, and I think he means it.

Speer, maybe the idea of marriage should be challenged. Maybe there are more than one right ways. And surely if we accept that the "traditional way" isnt the only right way, there will be attempts at experimenting with many wrong ways, but confining the only acceptable way into only "traditional ways" isnt helpful either. You conflicting over whether to accept gay marriage as right or wrong is a perfect example.

	18-04-2003 08:11									#17
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Hmm, ok those are THE concerns that I've heard time and again...and they're good concerns that need good, unbiased answers.

Personally, my feeling is that it's no one's business what two consenting adults do, but when children are involved great care must be taken. *Obviously nothing sexual* A gay couple must ensure the child understands the sensitivity of the situation. The teachers must also ensure that the child is kept from ridicule by other children by scolding those who make it their business. The teacher must explain that it isn't OK to torment someone just because you don't agree with them/their life or because your parents tell you to. If you want to talk to them about it, talk don't tease. If you still disagree/disapprove that's your business. As far as "gayifying" a child, there have been unbiased scientific studies that generally show no measurable increase in the homosexuality of children who have a gay parent than those who neither parent is gay. No, I don't have the links; the papers on these studies are probably behind the login screens of overly-expensive scientific journal websites beyond my reach.

	18-04-2003 08:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Calc II knows what I'm saying... Asher: I'm not concerned with rights... i'm concerned with the good of the general society and the re-creation of loving families... re-read what Calc said as that's my position

It's bullshit, again, because it's ridiculous.

We should stop gay people from getting married because you think it might lead to other forms of marriage which you think might be harmful?

Here's the problem: Marriage is too easy to get into for heterosexuals, not easy enough to get into for homosexuals. And even when you're in a marriage, it's the heterosexual white rednecks that beat the **** out of their kids in a drunken rage, not the gay couples.

If you want to save the family, first preach about tolerance and understanding. Teach sympathy, sensitivity, as well as survivability.

Don't give your kids bad examples by shunning segments of society and depriving them of equal rights, despite what you claim is your "rationality" behind it.

	18-04-2003 08:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's bullshit, again, because it's ridiculous. We should stop gay people from getting married because you think it might lead to other forms of marriage which you think might be harmful? Here's the problem: Marriage is too easy to get into for heterosexuals, not easy enough to get into for homosexuals. And even when you're in a marriage, it's the heterosexual white rednecks that beat the **** out of their kids in a drunken rage, not the gay couples. If you want to save the family, first preach about tolerance and understanding. Teach sympathy, sensitivity, as well as survivability. Don't give your kids bad examples by shunning segments of society and depriving them of equal rights, despite what you claim is your "rationality" behind it.

I think I explained it much nicer and clearer in my recent post.

	18-04-2003 08:18									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Asher And even when you're in a marriage, it's the heterosexual white rednecks that beat the **** out of their kids in a drunken rage, not the gay couples.

Give it time, it'll happen...

It's Human nature.

	18-04-2003 08:20									#21
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as nice as it would be to place restrictions on who gets to breed, it would also be morally unconscionable.

evil people will always brutalize children, be they homosexual adults or heterosexual adults. (they are not parents. a parent is someone who would take care of their children, not abuse them. the cretins that do are no more than biological source material.)

	18-04-2003 08:24									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Asher It's bullshit, again, because it's ridiculous. We should stop gay people from getting married because you think it might lead to other forms of marriage which you think might be harmful? Here's the problem: Marriage is too easy to get into for heterosexuals, not easy enough to get into for homosexuals. And even when you're in a marriage, it's the heterosexual white rednecks that beat the **** out of their kids in a drunken rage, not the gay couples. If you want to save the family, first preach about tolerance and understanding. Teach sympathy, sensitivity, as well as survivability. Don't give your kids bad examples by shunning segments of society and depriving them of equal rights, despite what you claim is your "rationality" behind it.

Asher, I have to tell you, your whole post is funny.

First you talk about hetero white rednecks beating the **** out of their children, then you say don't set bad examples by shunning segments of society.

You have to treat everyone equal, including the redneck, or you treat no one equal.

You are stereotyping rednecks just as much as you claim Albert is stereotyping homosexuals.

I thought you were above that.

ACK!

	18-04-2003 08:27									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Asher, I have to tell you, your whole post is funny. First you talk about hetero white rednecks beating the **** out of their children, then you say don't set bad examples by shunning segments of society. You have to treat everyone equal, including the redneck, or you treat no one equal. You are stereotyping rednecks just as much as you claim Albert is stereotyping homosexuals. I thought you were above that. ACK!

Was the wink too subtle?

	18-04-2003 08:30									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Was the wink too subtle?

Pardon me, apparently it was.



ACK!

	18-04-2003 08:37									#25
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Calc II:

I'd personally prefer not to risk straying from the tried and (generally) true method of having nuclear families...
maybe there's other working ways but i dont want to risk there bein ways that dont work...


Asher:

so you're saying that my concerns are illigitimate because people's rights are above the percieved good of society... maybe you're right but right now I'm not conerned with rights so thats not what i'm debating

	18-04-2003 08:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Asher: so you're saying that my concerns are illigitimate because people's rights are above the percieved good of society... maybe you're right but right now I'm not conerned with rights so thats not what i'm debating

You don't think people's rights are fundamentally connected with the "good of society"?

	18-04-2003 08:48									#27
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You think dead beat fathers are something new? This is an American tradtion. Men who didn't like how things were going in their family (and women too for that matter) often packed up and headed out West and started new ones. People claimed to be married who never were.

Learn some of your country's history.

	18-04-2003 09:02									#28
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No one's jumped up and down screaming and Bible thumping yet? The Bible is quite clearly against this sort of thing so there will always be a segment of the population who will be against same sex marriages and same sex couples adopting children.

A good friend of mine is in a lesbian relationship, they went to China (where everything comes from) to adopt a little girl. As far as I can tell, its one lucky little girl.

What we really need is some sort of test people have to pass to have children. If we're going to allow any drugged out, mentally unstable, poverty stricken but heterosexual teenagers to have kids, there is no moral ground to stand on to prevent homosexual couples from adopting. The same thing could be said for marriage.

	18-04-2003 10:33									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Calc II: I'd personally prefer not to risk straying from the tried and (generally) true method of having nuclear families... maybe there's other working ways but i dont want to risk there bein ways that dont work...

I'm a pessimist, so I'd say that the method we've got for raising children now, while certainly tried a good number of times, is not true. I'd say that the majority of people in the world, or at least everyone I know, is flawed in some way, and in a good number of cases, in major ways. But as I said, I am of the belief that the fundamental way in which we live is flawed, so my opinion isn't necessarily valid.

Anyhow, eventually, once gays are seen as the same thing as everyone else, gay marriage will not be seen as some strange alternative, but as the same thing as all other marriages, and so it will not encourage even more perversion. And those other perversions you speak of, whatever they may be, will probably die out once people find out they really are just stupid and flawed.

There will always be people that do stupid things, that is, until we change the way in which we raise children and begin to teach logic, reason, and rationality instead of a host of ingrained morals without the reason for those morals. But I've gotten away from the point.

My point is (I'm tired btw) gays are cool, gays are people, let 'em get married, because eventually it will be normal and everyone will be alright again.

	18-04-2003 10:36									#30
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Why would someone want to prevent me from making a legal commitment to someone I love to spend my life with him?

Why would someone else's commitment to their own partner be somehow lessened by my being allowed the above?

Those are my two questions.