20-04-2003 03:38									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Frogman Marriage is a tradition common to many cultures and many religions. What we are talking about is making gay marriage recognized by the government and employers with regard to benefits, taxes and other secular concerns. Many view marriage as a sacrament or seek the blessings of the church on their marriage. Religious leaders are given the authority to perform this legal act/cerimony in addition to others, like a justice of the peace or the captain of a ship but this is a legal cerimony with legal consequences. Churches and pastors can refuse any couple seeking marriage in their church and often do. Catholics have a rigorous councilling process and many priests will not marry mixes faith couples. Legalizing and recognizing same sex marriage will not force churches to bend their rules, but certainly some will change to accept it. Gay couples always have secular options if religious ones are not available, but I expect more churches will be performing these marriages.

The problem is that the state muscled in on a religious ceremony and made it it's own. Since it's largely a matter of faith that homosexuality is wrong it's simply unfair to use an already purloined ritual in this way.

I favour only churches being allowed to perform marriages and civil unions for the rest of us.

	20-04-2003 03:40									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The problem is that the state muscled in on a religious ceremony and made it it's own. Since it's largely a matter of faith that homosexuality is wrong it's simply unfair to use an already purloined ritual in this way. I favour only churches being allowed to perform marriages and civil unions for the rest of us.

I completely support the separation of marriage from governments...

I think civil unions/domestic partnerships are the way to go legally, and they can be accompanied by a religious ceremony if the people so choose, but that ceremony should not affect anything legally.

	20-04-2003 03:42									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I completely support the separation of marriage from governments... I think civil unions/domestic partnerships are the way to go legally, and they can be accompanied by a religious ceremony if the people so choose, but that ceremony should not affect anything legally.

Agreed for the most part.

I just had a good idea. Let the state run the civil unions and let churches perform these and call them marriages if they want to. But the churches have the right to add extra bits of church law to marriages that they perform. This means that they can legally indulge their predilecation for flogging adulterers.

	20-04-2003 03:43									#64
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Well.. My opinion is that you love the person, not gender.. so if you happen to love someone who is same sex.. then I don't see any problems.

	20-04-2003 03:46									#65
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The best reason for doing something right now is that there are cases where long term partners are prohibited from attending their dying partner's bedside in hospital because they aren't legally "family".

This is an act of fiendish cruelty and should be stamped out immediately.

	20-04-2003 03:53									#66
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My take on this....well, honestly, I am a little uncomfortable with same sex marriage. I see it as our duty to pass along our own genetic makeup and same sex marriage prevents this.

HOWEVER, I am aware of other viewpoints and even though I am uncomfortable with this, I don't think that these ppl shoiuld be denied their rights as humans. If these ppl love each other, then they should be able to get married.

I respect your rights if you respect mine.

	20-04-2003 03:56									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan I see it as our duty to pass along our own genetic makeup and same sex marriage prevents this..

Shouldn't you be out screwing yourself silly?

I saw three unimpregnated women just this morning. How evil is that?!?

	20-04-2003 03:59									#68
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quote: My take on this....well, honestly, I am a little uncomfortable with same sex marriage. I see it as our duty to pass along our own genetic makeup and same sex marriage prevents this.

Well... if someone's gay, then they aren't going to be "passing on their genetic make-up" anyway, are they?

	20-04-2003 04:02									#69
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quote: Originally posted by *End Is Forever* Well... if someone's gay, then they aren't going to be "passing on their genetic make-up" anyway, are they?

True. But he's still committed himself to impregnating every fertile woman he sees that's not a close relative of his.

	20-04-2003 04:14									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Frankychan My take on this....well, honestly, I am a little uncomfortable with same sex marriage. I see it as our duty to pass along our own genetic makeup and same sex marriage prevents this.

How will same-sex marriages have any effect whatsoever on heterosexual birth rates?

Besides, an increasing number of same-sex couples are having children through means of artificial insemination, surrogate mothers, etc. And then there is the potential for such couples to be a source of adoptive parents, which are sorely needed.

	20-04-2003 04:17									#71
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jesus christ

	20-04-2003 04:19									#72
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 jesus christ

Interesting contribution there.

	20-04-2003 04:21									#73
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we should always praise the lord so he will forgive us our sins.

	20-04-2003 04:22									#74
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*sigh* I knew I'd take flak for this, but I'm determined to ride it out.

I'm not against homosexual marriage, if that's the conclusion you've all come to. What I was saying was that I think it is our duty to pass along our genetic makeup for future generations....albeit responsibly. Going out and having sex with anyone we can get our hands on is NOT responsible.

If same sex couples decide to have children through other means: artificial insemination, surrogate mothers, etc I don't have a problem with that, so long as it's their own genes. As for adoption, I think that same sex partners can be a great influence on these children who might have lived in a less stable environment.

But going back, I think passing on our genes to the next generation should be responsible. Guys who go out there and have 3+ children and not marry any of those women he impregnated is sick.

Last edited by Frankychan on 20-04-2003 at 04:50

	20-04-2003 04:23									#75
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 we should always praise the lord so he will forgive us our sins.

Amen, brother.

	20-04-2003 04:27									#76
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quote: True. But he's still committed himself to impregnating every fertile woman he sees that's not a close relative of his.

Hey! That's my job!

	20-04-2003 04:31									#77
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Uh...FrankyChan? Ya' might want to reword that last sentence...

	20-04-2003 04:39									#78
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Ok, I meant with 3+ more women. My bad. Thanks.

(you know, get them pregnant, then leave the woman high and dry)

	20-04-2003 04:42									#79
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No problem.

	20-04-2003 04:42									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How will same-sex marriages have any effect whatsoever on heterosexual birth rates? Besides, an increasing number of same-sex couples are having children through means of artificial insemination, surrogate mothers, etc. And then there is the potential for such couples to be a source of adoptive parents, which are sorely needed.

But Boris - it is so much cheaper the old fashioned way..... after all I'd be willing to bet that the purchase price of 10 pints of lager at the Dog and Duck is considerably less than that of all those medical procedures.

	20-04-2003 04:44									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But Boris - it is so much cheaper the old fashioned way..... after all I'd be willing to bet that the purchase price of 10 pints of lager at the Dog and Duck is considerably less than that of all those medical procedures.

Lager? Bah! In my day it was a swift kick to the back of the head and dragging them home.

	20-04-2003 04:47									#82
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon Lager? Bah! In my day it was a swift kick to the back of the head and dragging them home.

You old coot! We moderns used a stone club.

A sexist joke.

Q Why did Cavemen drag subdued women back to their caves by their hair?

A. Because if they dragged them by their feet they'd fill up with sand.

	20-04-2003 04:54									#83
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same sex marriages will never work...I mean, who'd wear a white lace dress with a black leather cap?...c'mon!

	20-04-2003 04:57									#84
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quote: Originally posted by reds4ever same sex marriages will never work...I mean, who'd wear a white lace dress with a black leather cap?...c'mon!

Boy George!!!!

	20-04-2003 08:40									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The problem is that the state muscled in on a religious ceremony and made it it's own. Since it's largely a matter of faith that homosexuality is wrong it's simply unfair to use an already purloined ritual in this way. I favour only churches being allowed to perform marriages and civil unions for the rest of us.

I think this is total crap. Marriage has been a legal institution for thousands of years across many cultures and religions. Faith in any particular religion has nothing to do with it.

	20-04-2003 09:04									#86
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quote: Marriage is a tradition common to many cultures and many religions. What we are talking about is making gay marriage recognized by the government and employers with regard to benefits, taxes and other secular concerns.

Frogman:

If this is your argument, then domestic partnerships are the way to go, like here in Canada. They have absolutely no distinctions between the domestic partnerships and marriage here in Canada, with respect to taxes, etc.

quote: Faith in any particular religion has nothing to do with it.

Then why do people get married in churches?

red_jon:

quote: Some may find it impossible to believe, but there ARE gay-friendly churches, which are perectly normal (note 'gay friendly' does not equal 'gay') and would be perfectly willing to marry same-sex couples were they given the legal right to.

You imply that this is the 'norm' amongst churches? How do you figure this?

Gay-friendly does not necessarily equal willing to marry gays. Why do you think Jesus hangs out with prostitutes and tax-collectors? He does so, because these are the people who most need His help. The same with gay people.

quote: Other countries (such as Holland) have had same-sex marraiges for a while now, with no negative effect.

News to me. Source?

quote: But the churches have the right to add extra bits of church law to marriages that they perform.

I agree with Agathon?

	20-04-2003 09:10									#87
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Boris:

quote: Besides, an increasing number of same-sex couples are having children through means of artificial insemination, surrogate mothers, etc. And then there is the potential for such couples to be a source of adoptive parents, which are sorely needed.

I'd be very interested to see percentages for these numbers, as a total for the number of births in the US.

Besides, do you figure all the Lesbian couples are going to have 4 children each to make up for the gay couples?

	20-04-2003 09:28									#88
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I'm unopposed to Gay marriage, now.
Gay adoption, I'm against.

Sorry. My failing, I'm sure; but no.

	20-04-2003 18:36									#89
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Then why do people get married in churches?

In this country at least, the majority of it is tradition. Barely anyone actually goes to church once a week.

quote: red_jon: You imply that this is the 'norm' amongst churches? How do you figure this?

How did I imply it was the 'norm'? I merely stated that there are churches that would marry gay people. Yes, I have encountered homophobic churches (obviously).

quote: Gay-friendly does not necessarily equal willing to marry gays. Why do you think Jesus hangs out with prostitutes and tax-collectors? He does so, because these are the people who most need His help. The same with gay people.

Umm, Jesus NEVER said being gay was wrong. See, it's statements like these that show what a 'moran' you are

quote: News to me. Source?

Umm, pretty much EVERYONE knows that same-sex marraiges are legal in Holland. You don't know that you really shouldn't be participating in a debate on gay marraige.

	20-04-2003 18:38									#90
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I'm unopposed to Gay marriage, now. Gay adoption, I'm against. Sorry. My failing, I'm sure; but no.

Some day I plan on adopting kids - that is, if I'm in a position to give them a decent home and a loving family.

But I'm sure adoption is for another thread