21-04-2003 06:06									#61
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I'll post Theseus's big message here and then my reply to keep things in order:

quote: Starting in the NW: ARASHI 3 Workers chopping at A4 Worker continues mining at WW6 Worker roads at T7 Bring the WC at A69 back into Arashi The Pike in Tempest goes to Arashi and fortifies SANDSTORM Move the reg Sword at SS6 to H8 The reg Sword at H8 true fortifies The 3 Workers at H8 start to road The Pike in Hurricane goes to H8 The WC at H9 goes to SS6 and fortifies The Worker NE of the river and EotS goes to H9 OTHER The Pike in EotS goes 78 Don;t know what to do with the Workers at BB9 and BB99 The Worker in Cyclone goes to Tornado and disbands The Galley in Typhoon goes to BB1 PRODUCTION Everything remains the same, except: Rush the Cats in Sandstorm and OG EotS to Horseman Tornado to Cat, to be short-rushed and then switched to Horseman THE BIG QUESTIONS 1) What the f*ck do we want to do about GoW? 2) Do we attack Vox at A9 or not? 2a) Given vet and elite retreat odds, I'd normally say yes, but maintaining the ability to deal with a GoW threat deters me. 2b) What do we want Vox to do? Attack Arashi, yes? Better then to leave their stack at full strength? Or, if we are successful in taking some hps, do we further divide / blunt Vox' attack capabilities? 3) Do we attack Vox at A89? Not sure why we would, but I thought I'd throw it out there. QUESTION Does anyone know if a WC can land from a Galley onto roaded jungle?

	21-04-2003 06:08									#62
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My response (which would have been a nice e-mail crosspost with other messages if Apolyton weren't back up):


(1) The purpose of the workers at Arashi 4 is to build a road to give us an alternate route to Tempest so Vox can't block us if they bypass Arashi.

(2) I'd like to have the WC at Arash 6-9 move 6 to make sure Vox hasn't dropped more immortals on the mountain, and then 1 where Vox can't attack him (unless something he sees changes our minds)

(3) There's some risk involved, but I'm inclined to leave Hurricane 8 with just two units, the pike and the regular sword. If I remember the odds quoted correctly, that gives Vox one chance in eight of taking the tile, which would be expensive in terms of losing the three workers. But it also gives us a better-than-even shot of breaking the attack on Hurricane before the third immortal arrives if Vox takes the "opening." In contrast, if we leave Sandstorm 6 the more tempting target, Vox would get two attacks with almost even odds of victory, and their survivors could then be covered by a fresh veteran immortal while they heal. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but it seems like a tempting gamble. By the way, the medieval infantry Tornado just finished could attack the second Voxian unit if Vox does break through, although if they're smart, they'd already have the captured workers moved back a tile.

(4) Cyclone built the first half of a catapult (or it could be changed to some other unit) this turn. There is no worker to disband.

(5) For the galley, we want to go west, then north rather than north, than west wherever we have a choice. That gets us where we're going just as fast, but lets us explore more along the way.

(6) I'm thinking in terms of having the workers near Bolderberg move onto the hill between Bolderberg and O.G. One can start a road and the other a mine.

(7) I think we want another pike in EotS in case Vox manages to sealift more troops into the Hurricane area before we start building horsemen there; maybe more than one because we're planning some operations in Voxian territory that will need pikes. In contrast, none of our near-term operations call for horsemen, so we don't have to be in a hurry producing them.

(8) Since we can't short-rush a cat in Tornado at a reasonable price (and we'll be getting a cat in Cyclone if we don't change its production), I'd like to have Tornado keep going with medieval infantry. Right now it can do 42 shields in 3 turns, so it's well suited for medieval infantry. Also, with Hurricane at just over 20 shields per turn, I think a medieval infantry there makes a lot of sense. (When we get Vox down off the mountains, medieval infantry will be less attractive, but medieval infantry will be great for the assault on Dissidentville and may be needed before then to dislodge some mountain Voxians.)

Regarding Theseus's questions,

(1) We might want to tell GoW that we're okay with their having a galley off our coast only if they stop making threatening noises about it. We have defenses; they just can't see our defenses.

(2) I see no sense in attacking Arashi 9 this turn. Odds attacking into mountains are lousy, and the first unit we'd hit would be a spearman. And we don't have enough WCs to wear through the stack and be able to go after the wounded. Better to save our attackers' strength, and then we can consider going after wounded survivors from the attack on Arashi next turn if Vox behaves as expected.

(3) All we have to attack Vox with around Hurricane right now is swordsmen. That would be just plain silly considering how much better the units' odds are on defense and the fact that we can eventually upgrade swordsmen to medieval infantry if they live long enough.

By the way, I already moved one of our eastern galleys north and he didn't see anything interesting.

	21-04-2003 06:08									#63
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GoW is in Anarchy, they won't be attacking us seriously anytime soon

	21-04-2003 06:10									#64
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We're still weak compared with Vox. We're strong compared with everyone else but RP, and average compared with them.

	21-04-2003 06:12									#65
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Team scores:

219 (+5) Gathering Storm
215 (+3) Demogyptica
181 (+3) Glory of War
214 (+2) Role Play
144 (+2) Vox Controli
219 (+3) Legoland

For whatever it's worth, we're now tied with Lego for first in score.

	21-04-2003 06:14									#66
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Still weak compeared to VoX, if we'd only could combine our forces for better purposes

edit: x post with nathan

	21-04-2003 06:16									#67
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I don't think we should give them any chance to get next to Hurricane. Ever. How far north did you move the Galley?

	21-04-2003 06:19									#68
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I moved the first galley as far north as it could go (8-8-8-8). The second is still sitting where it was in case we might want to do something different with it.

	21-04-2003 06:20									#69
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How about sending an in-game message to GoW (renaming whirlwind)
Something like "GF, don't do it !"

	21-04-2003 06:22									#70
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I moved the first galley as far north as it could go (8-8-8-8). The second is still sitting where it was in case we might want to do something different with it.

Most likely have the second follow to lend support in the event of them attacking. Gives us the edge.

	21-04-2003 06:24									#71
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btw, we can't see a tile that could have a loaded Galley in it within range of Hurricane 8. Furthermore, we are still well short of either Aeson's or DeepO's unit count for them.

	21-04-2003 06:31									#72
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither btw, we can't see a tile that could have a loaded Galley in it within range of Hurricane 8. Furthermore, we are still well short of either Aeson's or DeepO's unit count for them.

Good catch. That means we definitely want three units on Hurricane 8.

	21-04-2003 07:14									#73
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Here's my latest take on turn orders. I've modified deviations from Theseus's plan with an asterisk. (No attacks this turn, except for hitting the stack on Arashi 9 with our cat.)

ARASHI
*3 Workers road Arashi 4
Worker continues mining at Whirlwind 6
Worker roads at Tempest 7
*WC at Arashi 69 moves 6 and then, if he doesn't see anything, 1.
The Pike in Tempest goes to Arashi and fortifies
*Upgrade the warrior in Arashi

SANDSTORM
Move the reg Sword at SS6 to H8
The reg Sword at H8 true fortifies
*The 3 Workers at H8 start to mine
The Pike in Hurricane goes to H8
The WC at H9 goes to SS6 and fortifies
The Worker NE of the river and EotS goes to H9

OTHER
The Pike in EotS goes 78
*Workers at Bolderberg 9 and 9-9 go to the hill at Bolderberg 8-7.
*Tornado starts a medieval infantry (3 turns)
*Cyclone finishes a cat
*The Galley in Typhoon moves 4-4-8-8 (exploring as much sea as possible without delaying it)

PRODUCTION
Everything remains the same, except:
Rush the Cats in Sandstorm and OG *(Or do we want to go with Aeson's idea of short rushing a pike in Bolderberg, currently set to finish a WC next turn, instead of the cat in Sandstorm?)
*Leave EotS on pikes (noted because Theseus wanted a horseman for reasons he hasn't explained)

	21-04-2003 07:31									#74
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay *Leave EotS on pikes (noted because Theseus wanted a horseman for reasons he hasn't explained)

Because I am PISSED OFF, and we have / will have enough Pikes local to the action, and because I am anxious to get onto offense!!

Not giving any of GS grief, except myself maybe, but I would rather turn this corner sooner rather than later.

On offense, we don;t have enough MedInf, nor enough fastmovers... given individual town / city production capabilities, and balancing speed versus power versus terrain access (in that order), I think that Horsemen are appropriate in certain cases.

But I am cool with whatever we decide as a team...

Production power. Damn if this doesn't remind me of WW2.

PS: Do I need to copy any of the emails into this fourm for posterity?

	21-04-2003 07:31									#75
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The Worker NE of the river would make for a nicely timed road on H8 when the mine finishes there.

If we can take a WC from the Arashi area to SS6, that frees the one on our Iron to stay there, and we can have 3 units on SS6 (they can't break through) and 3 units at H8 (they can't break through). Then we have the Med Inf and EotS' Pike that can reinforce any tile they hit, meaning they almost surely can't ever get through to either SS6 or H8.

A WC from Arashi can certainly be spared for this, or the northern WC (it would be good to keep scouting the NE coast with it though). I would rather have an idle WC covering our Iron than forcing a Worker to idle there. Vox would have to be mad to move any units onto flatlands next turn, and so the WC's aren't going to be busy anyways (other than the ones we tag to shadow GoW's galley).

	21-04-2003 07:39									#76
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The worker isn't idling, exactly. He's waiting to be added to Hurricane the same turn the mine finishes so we can get up to 30 shields a tad sooner. There isn't any job he could be assigned to that could be finished in time for that, so he pretty much has to stand and wait somewhere. Why not where it can do us some good?

	21-04-2003 07:40									#77
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We need the Iron covered.

/Edit, but using the scout WC around SS and leaving the other WC on the Iron works too.

	21-04-2003 07:41									#78
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Idling a Worker is not a big deal... better to keep combatant units available for the fray.

For that matter, I ask that everyone continue to consider Workers as potential "building seeds"... it can make a big difference, much more so than the actual benefit of short-term Worker tile actions.

	21-04-2003 07:50									#79
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I see the point about the Worker. Another turn of Hurricane at 30 shields is much more worthwhile than another turn with the road in place.

Should we build a Harbor in Hurricane? It would be a reasonably well timed build, 3 more turns at 29 (28? 27?) shields per turn?

	21-04-2003 07:55									#80
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Beautiful! Looks like solid defenses in Arashi, and plenty of Mojo for them if they are unwise enough to step off of the protection offered by the mountains (if they split toward Sandstorm, I count eight WC's that can reach them in the plains....that's a major owie.

Odds are excellent though, that they'll be attacking Arashi....my guess would be on their next turn. I predict that it will break the stack, and stall their offensive.

-=Vel=-

	21-04-2003 07:55									#81
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Theseus, I can sympathize a great deal with your desire to shift to an offensive mode, but if Vox forks Arashi and Tempest and/or gets lucky around Hurricane and/or lands a couple more immortals around Hurricane, we'll need all the defenders we can get. Also, I think there's a great chance our first offensive opportunities will be a galley strike or two at Vox's iron supply, and that calls for pikes, not horsemen.

Further, as long as Vox is threatening Hurricane, pikes can free up swordsmen for upgrade to medieval infantry. And releasing a prospective medieval infantry for offensive instead of defensive use can be just as valuable as building one, right? Edit: Removed some redundancy.

	21-04-2003 08:09									#82
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Anyways, I'm logging off again. Play this one out quick, everything discussed works (or can be corrected easily ), and this is our best chance to ditch the 'slow team' label... pawn if off on Vox at least for easter.

	21-04-2003 08:28									#83
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One big question left (if Theseus is okay with what I posted): which would be more valuable to us, short-rushing a pike in Bolderberg instead of getting another WC, or rushing a cat in Sandstorm?

	21-04-2003 08:34									#84
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I went ahead and moved our northern WC 9 (it occurred to me that 9-2 accomplishes a little more than 6-1) and our new galley 4-4-8-8. Nothing interesting to report.

	21-04-2003 08:37									#85
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Our cat hit. Vox now has a reason to think bypassing Arashi might be less than entirely safe. Edit: and now that their spearman is injured, any future cat hits would weaken veteran immortals.

	21-04-2003 08:38									#86
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I think 1 Pike at BB prior to resuming fast movers might be a good idea.

/Edit. Cheaper too.

/Edit again. And next turn we can rush a Pike at Arashi and a MedInf at Tornado.

	21-04-2003 08:41									#87
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Still weak compared with Vox and average compared with RP after upgrading our warrior to a medieval infantry.

	21-04-2003 08:45									#88
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I'm hoping this will be the last turn where we're desperate enough to spend cash rushing troops. Rushing troops provides no real investment leverage, except insofar as it might make a war a little faster and cheaper. I think the rushing leverage is better elsewhere (e.g. an aqueduct in Tempest or courthouses in outlying cities).

	21-04-2003 08:47									#89
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We are nowhere near safe, and short rushes at Tornado for offensive power would be money very well spent.

/Edit. And Cats elsewhere.

	21-04-2003 08:48									#90
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I like the idea of a pike for two reasons: (1) it gives us more total power if Vox forks Tempest and Arashi and (2) it gives us a better chance of freeing up a pair of pikes for an anti-road offensive in the west (in case our eastern galleys and/or pikemen are too tied up for an eastern strike in the same timeframe).