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Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
Emperor
United States of America
Jan 1970
time: 21:27
  Old Post 20-04-2003 22:34 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DarthVeda
It's a nice dream but Socialism isn't on the bush agenda the last time I checked.

Besides we went through this before in 1994 when the Democrats had the majority in the Congress, and it was overwhelmingly defeated. I remember clinton making it a big campaign push but after that happened, he completely dropped it.


Sometimes it takes a few tries though.

You learn from mistakes and then go at it again.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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  Old Post 20-04-2003 22:36 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DarthVeda
Just think about how much medicare already costs the US... you want to apply that to everybody? Are you nuts?


Just think how many kids grow up having problems functioning because they can't get access to basic medical care.

You want all of them to go without? Are you nuts?

DarthVeda is offline DarthVeda
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  Old Post 20-04-2003 22:36 Visit DarthVeda's homepage!
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They seem to be making it without... I haven't seen a massive upcry because of the thousands that die due to no medical coverage... oh wait they're not

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
Question  Old Post 20-04-2003 22:38
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quote:
Originally posted by *End Is Forever*
Perhaps if you ditched all the corporate welfare...
Why stop at corporate welfare?

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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  Old Post 20-04-2003 22:41 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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You don't get it.

Being healthy is the foundation of your entire life. When your health isn't there, it makes everything else you are trying to accomplish 10 times harder. People who can't get basic checkups become marginalized because they have to waste time and energy dealing with health problems.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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  Old Post 20-04-2003 22:45 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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This is from a Harvard study, by the way:

quote:

In the U.S., a third of citizens with below average incomes said that they did not fill a prescription, did not get recommended tests or treatment, and did not visit a doctor when they had a medical problem because of cost barriers.

At least one in five Americans reported problems paying their medical bills, filling prescriptions, getting medical care when they had a problem, or getting a physician-recommended test. Americans with below average incomes reported more access to care problems than did their counterparts in the other four countries, according to the findings, which appear in the May/June international issue of the journal Health Affairs.


http://www.cmwf.org/media/releases/...se05142002.html

cinch is offline cinch
Chieftain
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Jul 2002
time: 22:27
  Old Post 20-04-2003 22:45
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America wouldn't need much of a tax hike at all to afford universal health care.

Just cut military spending by a few percent, and reallocate the funds.

Everybody wins!

quote:
DinoDoc is right... canada screwed it up for everybody.


The biggest problem with out health care is that too many doctors and nurses run south to make the big money. If America socialised health care, there'd be a lot less strain on the system. In my opinion.

Sandman is offline Sandman
Prince
Sinister Penguin
Aug 2001
time: 05:27
  Old Post 20-04-2003 22:49
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Well, this seems to be good news for Iraq, although they should really decide on this themselves.

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
King
of the Gulag Archipelago
Apr 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 20-04-2003 23:09
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Got spare money?

UHC is fine as long as there is also private firms. That way, people have a choice. To fund it we can cut military spending by pulling out of all those countries, and by ending corporate welfare

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 20-04-2003 23:12
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I have no problem with private firms, as long as the people that get treatment will pay the UHC tax, also.


Seriously, the last things I heard, your privatised healthcare actually costs more than the healthcare in the EU, or here, as part of GDP.

Dis is offline Dis
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Feb 2000
time: 21:27
  Old Post 20-04-2003 23:26 Visit Dis's homepage!
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Got spare money?

The U.S. could in theory have it. But a complete overhaul of the medical system would be needed.

And Tort reform would have to be on the top of that list. As malpractice would make it too expensive.

The thing to note is American medical system is better than any other in the world. There is a reason why people from nations like Cuba (who has universal health care) come to the U.S. for big operations like in the Mayo clinic. We have the most advanced equipment and best trained surgeons and specialists. But all that costs more money than the medical system in a place like Cuba.

So we'd have to make some sacrifices to the quality of our care in order to cover everyone.

Jon Miller is offline Jon Miller
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May 1999
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  Old Post 20-04-2003 23:27
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why?

why not just spend more moeny?

Jon Miller

yavoon is offline yavoon
Warlord

Oct 2001
time: 05:27
  Old Post 20-04-2003 23:29
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spoken like a true liberal

Lawrence of Arabia is offline Lawrence of Arabia
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Apr 2001
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  Old Post 20-04-2003 23:30
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Because throwing good money after bad doesnt give you results - it just gives you more waste.

Dis is offline Dis
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  Old Post 20-04-2003 23:31 Visit Dis's homepage!
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spend more money ehh.

That's crazy enough not to work.

That is what they are doing to our school system in Clark County. They keep spending more and more, yet the kids get dumber and dumber.

Az is offline Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
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  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:02
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I've got to agree. Throwing money at problems does NOT solve them. however, sometimes there are funding problems. In this case, there could be a funding problem, and there could be a systematic problem.

Like education in Israel. We throw lots of money, but kids become dumber and dumber due to inadequate educational programs.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:06 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
And Tort reform would have to be on the top of that list. As malpractice would make it too expensive.


I know several states are looking at this.

Some doctors even went on strike last year until there were malpractice limits put into law.

But malpractice reform has reached crisis levels and needs to be dealt with no matter what happens.

*End Is Forever* is offline *End Is Forever*
Emperor
Salford, UK
Jan 1970
time: 05:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:17 Visit *End Is Forever*'s homepage!
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quote:
The thing to note is American medical system is better than any other in the world. There is a reason why people from nations like Cuba (who has universal health care) come to the U.S. for big operations like in the Mayo clinic. We have the most advanced equipment and best trained surgeons and specialists. But all that costs more money than the medical system in a place like Cuba.


That's nonsense. It's true that at the high-end of medical advancement, particularly in pioneering surgery, the USA has an excellent record. However, this involves a tiny minority of those in need of medical help.

The simple truth is that unless you are one of the minority pay through the nose for Health Insurance, the American system is ludicrously inferior and - worse - you're paying a fortune for it. The USA spends considerably higher %GDP for a system that leaves a significant proportion of the population uncovered than, say, France or Germany do for a system that leaves everybody covered.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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time: 21:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:20 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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Watch it Iain you said the F and G words.

Edan is offline Edan
Chieftain

Dec 2002
time: 00:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara Can we have it here?


Does anyone really think that the medical condition of Iraqis once universal health care system is in place will really be better than the condition of Americans without such a system in place? Any universal healthcare will almost certainly be concentrating on meeting basic medical services and trying to undo the decades of deteriorating conditions under Saddam for the forseeable future, not on screening and treating cancer or the like.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:21
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quote:


That's nonsense. It's true that at the high-end of medical advancement, particularly in pioneering surgery, the USA has an excellent record. However, this involves a tiny minority of those in need of medical help.

The simple truth is that unless you are one of the minority pay through the nose for Health Insurance, the American system is ludicrously inferior and - worse - you're paying a fortune for it. The USA spends considerably higher %GDP for a system that leaves a significant proportion of the population uncovered than, say, France or Germany do for a system that leaves everybody covered.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Edan
Does anyone really think that the medical condition of Iraqis once universal health care system is in place will really be better than the condition of Americans without such a system in place?
The thread was never really about that. We're discussing the merrits of reviving a proposal that failed miserably in Congress even when it had everything going for it.

Edan is offline Edan
Chieftain

Dec 2002
time: 00:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:25
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
The thread was never really about that.


Well, it was for the first post.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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Jan 1970
time: 21:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:27 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
The thread was never really about that. We're discussing the merrits of reviving a proposal that failed miserably in Congress even when it had everything going for it.


Well I'm not. The original proposal sucked.

We need a new one.

jolair is offline jolair
Warlord

Nov 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Edan
Any universal healthcare will almost certainly be concentrating on meeting basic medical services and trying to undo the decades of deteriorating conditions under Saddam for the forseeable future, not on screening and treating cancer or the like.


Just 12 years of deteriorating conditions under embargo.

Until 1991 their medical services were quite good.

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:31 Visit Ted Striker's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by jolair


Just 12 years of deteriorating conditions under embargo.

Until 1991 their medical services were quite good.


Maybe you missed the part about :

1) Saddam invading Kuwait to get rid of the debts because of all the money he owed them

2) Saddam building several dozen million/billion dollar palace complexes across the country

3) US soliders recently recover $650 million dollars just sitting there

Embargo had nothing to do with it.

jolair is offline jolair
Warlord

Nov 2001
time: 06:27
  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ted Striker
Embargo had nothing to do with it.



"Health Situation in Iraq"

presented by

Dr W. Kreisel Executive Director WHO Office of the European Union

At the hearing "Iraq and the International Community" of the Committee on Foreign Affairs, Human Rights, Common Security and Defence Policy

Brussels, 26 February 2001 Health Situation one decade ago

Before 1990 Iraq, with a GNP per capita of USD 2,800, belonged to the group of middle-income countries. The large investments in infrastructures and in human resources development carried out during the sixties and seventies had led to the development of an efficient health system that was considered one of the best in the Middle-East Region.

Malnutrition was virtually not seen, as households had easy and affordable access to a balanced dietary intake. Health care services were guaranteed by an extensive network of well-equipped, well-suppplied and well-staffed health facilities. The access of patients to higher levels of care was easy and effortless, supported as it was by a distributed network of secondary and tertiary hospitals/institutions. Ambulances and emergency services were well developed and benefitted from a properly maintained network of roads and telecommunications.

Water and sanitation services benefitted from large investments in water and sewage treatment plants during earlier decades, assuring nearly universal access to abundant safe drinking water and to a relatively clean environment. Electricity had been made available even to remote villages.

Health conditions were comparable to those of the middle or high-middle income countries.

The following table reports available health indicators prior to the Gulf War. As of 1989, these were as follows :

Health Status Indicators : Birth Rate 43 Per 1000 population Crude Death Rate 8 Per 1000 population Infant Mortality Rate 52 Per 1000 live births Under 5 Mortality Rate 94 Per 1000 live births Maternal Mortality Rate 160 Per 100 000 live births Low Birth Weight newborns 5% (below 2.5 kg) Life Expectancy 66 years

Health Service Performance Indicators % Population with Health Care 85% % Population with Safe Water 93% % Pregnant Women with Maternity Care 90% % Pregnant Women with Trained Birth Attendants during Delivery 86%

Indicators above point to a situation where resources for health were possibly adequate and equitably distributed.

Current Humanitarian and Health Situation

The Special Representative of the United Nations Secretary General drew international attention to the humanitarian situation in Iraq in his report of July 1991. This report spelt out the grave and deteriorating humanitarian situation in Iraq resulting from a set of interrelated factors : severely damaged essential civilian infrastructure, food shortage, poor environmental sanitation, non-functioning social and economic sectors.

Five years later the conditions had worsened to such an extent that the UN Security Council passed in May 1996 Resolution 986 to launch the "Oil-for-Food" Programme, thus allowing import of food and medicines into the country, paid out of the sale of limited amounts of Iraqi oil. The Memorandum of Understanding concluded between the United Nations and Iraq stipulated the modalities of this humanitarian assistance programme. The World Health Organization, as the United Nations specialized agency for health matters, executes some components of the health sector, co-ordinating with other UN Agencies health and health-related issues.

The severity of Iraq's humanitarian situation stems from the massive and swift degradation of the country's civilian infrastructure, aggravated by over 10 years of economic and trade isolation. Overall health conditions of the population remain poor -- well below the 1990 levels ; environmental health hazards continue unrelieved. Food availability and consumption fall short of requirements impacting the nutritional status of large part of the population. Chronic malnutrition is widespread, especially among the growing children.

After 1991 the declining food production resulted in a sharp drop in the country's ability to meet the population's basic nutritional requirements. Unlike the situation in the northern Governorates, food supplies continue to be inadequate in the centre and south of Iraq. Against a target of 2,463 kilocalories and 63.6 gms of protein per person per day, the nutritional value of the distributed food-basket do not exceed, on average, 1,993 kilocalories and 43 grams of protein. Prior to the start of the "Oil-for-Food" Programme the government of Iraq distributed 1,300 kilocalories per day.

The government food ration shows both quantitative and qualitative deficit in calories and micronutrients. The 1997 survey carried out by FAO revealed, amongst other things, a prevalence of acute, sub-acute and chronic malnutrition in children, with no significant decline compared to FAO 1995 findings. In their "Assessment of Food & Nutrition Situation in Iraq" of May-June 2000, the FAO/WFP/WHO confirmed that about 800,000 children under 5 are chronically malnourished. The report also indicated a high prevalence of anaemia in school children, and stated that numerous cases of rickets (Vitamin D deficiency) still occur. The report also confirmed that diarrhoea was an important contributing factor to the malnutrition cycle in Iraq. Wasting (low weight for height) in children under 5 was reported to be over 10% in Baghdad, Kerbala and Diyala governorates.

Some 30,232 cases of kwashiorkor and 264,468 cases of marasmus were registered in Iraq in 1998. Almost two million children were registered in 1998 as suffering from other protein, calorie & vitamin-related malnutrition. What is also alarming is the possibility that many of these children will fail to catch up with their potential intellectual growth and development in adult life.

UNICEF confirms that infant mortality and under-5 mortality rates are high. They have risen from 47 (IMR) and from 56 (Under 5 MR) in the period 1984-1989, to 108 (IMR) to 131 respectively (Under 5 MR) for the period 1994-1999.

Diseases that were virtually under control are re-emerging. Malaria, and waterborne diseases such as typhoid have not only reappeared but are now threatening large areas of the country which were not affected before. Other bacterial diseases, such as tuberculosis, are also on the increase. There has been a sharp upward trend in vaccine preventable diseases, which are now being brought under control by an intensive campaign of immunization jointly conducted by WHO and UNICEF. Ill health associated with pregnancy and deaths associated with childbirth have increased. Those deaths provide additional evidence of the poor nutritional status of pregnant women and highlight inadequate health care delivery. The number of infants with low birth-weight and women with severe anemia have also increased.

Many essential public health services such as blood transfusion and water quality control services cannot function due to lack of laboratory reagents and kits. Emergency and ambulance services for the referral of patients cannot carry out their functions, due to lack of or inadequate provisions of equipment and supplies.

Most of the health facilities are in poor physical state, lacking water and often without power supply, making them unsafe and unsuitable for good patient care.

Significant quantities of medicine and medical supplies and equipment have reached the country under SCR (Security Council Resolution) 986. Their utilization remains, however, not optimal. The installation and transportation to locations where they are needed has been and is still often prevented by logistic or financial constraints.

The functionality of water and sanitation plants is adversely affected by the lack of spare parts and of maintenance. Those utilities also require repair and rehabilitation, as unsafe drinking water, unhygienic environment and poor sewage systems continue to endanger the health of large sections of the Iraqi population.

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/ca...ak/who-pr200102

Ted Striker is offline Ted Striker
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That's a nice article there but it still doesn't explain why Saddam spent billions on palaces and stupid **** instead of feeding his own people.

Meanwhile the people in Northern Iraq (who DID spend oil money on food) were doing fine the whole time.

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:51
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Can we compare the Kurdish controlled North with the area under the sway of Baghdad since they both opperated under the exact same sanctions? That might give us a great way of determining of it was the sanctions or Saddam that was the problem.

DarthVeda is offline DarthVeda
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 21-04-2003 00:51 Visit DarthVeda's homepage!
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Socialized Medicine: So we can all be sick and miserable together!

 
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