25-04-2003 06:47									#31
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george washington also hated parties, citing them as the reason why england was bad.

	25-04-2003 06:49									#32
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he was elected by threwing liquor parties

	25-04-2003 06:57									#33
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Go on. Withdraw from Western Europe and Asia. You'll be finished as a world power, but go on do it anyway. Those forces are there for a reason, and it's a selfish reason.

Anyway, the US is going to get screwed for it's bad economic management when countries turn to a more stable currency (the Euro) which isn't being printed willy nilly to pay for Bush's militaristic lunacy.

Take a look at the balance of payments. You better fix your economy or you're dead.

	25-04-2003 07:08									#34
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European economy is in much worse shape than American's.

It can only get worse as you guys lose more and more competitiveness due to excessive welfare.

The only economy that is actually growing decently nowadays is China's. But they are still a long way behind.

	25-04-2003 07:20									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless European economy is in much worse shape than American's. It can only get worse as you guys lose more and more competitiveness due to excessive welfare. The only economy that is actually growing decently nowadays is China's. But they are still a long way behind.

uhhhhhh..... no.

It has nothing to do with welfare and everything to do with fiscal stability. The US dollar is now effectively the world's reserve currency - this gives the US somewhat of an economic free ride that other countries don't have. If the US starts printing money to pay for it's wars and tax cuts and the economy keeps sagging it will become less attractive as a reserve currency. If Britain adopts the Euro the European Union will have a bigger economy than the United States, making it much more attractive as a reserve currency.

Now what happens if foreigners dump their dollar holdings in favour of euros? Think about the balance of payments and the need for foreign investment.

Think "Splat!"

	25-04-2003 07:38									#36
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A return to isolationism would be a complete disaster not only for the U.S. but for the rest of the world.

First off pulling out of Europe basically leaves Europe with no security. This allows Russia to once again grab for central Europe and leaves Western Europe vunerable and scared. A scared Western Europe is going to be a rearmed Western Europe, possibly with wacky nationalists. ANd we all know what happens when Europe starts arming itself (see WWI and WWII). We keep our armies in Europe so Europe feels secured and can actually keeps its focus on unifying rather than retaking the Danzig corridor.

If we take our armies out of Japan and South Korea we basically allow China to swallow the entire region along with a rearmed Japan which is might try to counter China. A rearmed Japan has historically not been cool. Leaving Asia to China is going to threaten India along with Southeast Asia. So India has even more reason to push its nuclear program and Southeast Asia is worried about China trying to grab all of its dispora.

Removing our armies greatly reduces our international pull. Who's going to listen to us when we don't have armies strategically stationed around the world ready to smack any joker who gets out of line.

America has armies in other countries mainly because it gives the power to determine world events. Like AGaothon said its for a selfish reason, though I believe we can do a lot of good in the world if we get a coherent foreign policy which actually turns potential threats to our hegemony into allies. We are the indispensable nation because we have armies all over the world. If we pull out of the world we lose our superpower status. Plain and simple.

	25-04-2003 07:38									#37
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It would be great if the US withdrew its overseas troops and became isolationist. A lot of the world's problems are caused by the United States. Either the US is going around invading some two-bit country for no good reason, or the rest of the world stands around and does nothing while saying the US should do something.

But an isolationist policy will never happen. The American government wants to keep other nations in- line for big business reasons. Of course the same thing happened with the British empire where the British government sent troops to support companies like the East Indies Trading Company, British drug dealers in China, etc.

	25-04-2003 07:41									#38
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Check it out LM. I managed to find loads of articles like this with a brief search

http://www.feasta.org/documents/papers/oil1.htm

How does the US intend to maintain its dominance if it can't pay for it?

*edit* I just read that Indonesia may be planning to dump the dollar in favour of the Euro.

Last edited by Agathon on 25-04-2003 at 07:55

	25-04-2003 08:15									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai A lot of the world's problems are caused by the United States.

	25-04-2003 08:20									#40
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If you believe the future will belong to Europe, that's fine with me. We can argue for the next decade without coming to any conclusion. But you Euros remind me a little of the Chinese of 1700s.

	25-04-2003 08:20									#41
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It's sad that people like DD don't know what their government does.

	25-04-2003 08:21									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It would be great if the US withdrew its overseas troops and became isolationist. A lot of the world's problems are caused by the United States. Either the US is going around invading some two-bit country for no good reason, or the rest of the world stands around and does nothing while saying the US should do something.

Sure we can leave you guys to your own device. We would enjoy Chinese, Japanese, and other East Asian folks tearing each other apart in a decade.

	25-04-2003 08:26									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It's sad that people like DD don't know what their government does.

It's sad that people like Tingkai don't realise no one can stop us.

	25-04-2003 08:30									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai It's sad that people like DD don't know what their government does.

I've never seen any evidence to support your assertion that didn't make me fall down laughing but go ahead and enlighten me.

	25-04-2003 08:32									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless If you believe the future will belong to Europe, that's fine with me. We can argue for the next decade without coming to any conclusion. But you Euros remind me a little of the Chinese of 1700s.

I didn't say that. I said that if the US was so financially reckless the future would belong to the euro.

Euro - geddit?

	25-04-2003 08:37									#46
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Can't do it Diss, because the wind blows.

	25-04-2003 09:16									#47
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DD: Do you really think the US has never made a mistake, that it has never caused any problems, that it is just an innocent bystander responding to events, but never initiating events?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that the US is evil or that everything wrong in the world is the fault of the US. Instead, I am saying the very fact that the US is the only superpower creates problems throughout the world, but not all problems. These problems are not necessarily something the US government wants.

The US decided it wanted to get rid of Saddam. Sounds great. The US got rid of an evil dictator. But now they have destabilised the region.

The US has the power to prop up various governments and it does prop up governments, eg the Saudis and Pakistan. During the post-WWII period, the US has installed and supported governments that created more problems then they solved (eg, South Vietnam). Other governments have been overthrown by US-backed forces (eg, Chile and Nicaragua).

The US policy of acting like the world's policeman means that other governments ignore problems they should be dealing with. Look at what happened in Yugoslavia. The rest of Europe sat around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the US to decide what it was going to do.

Is the US completely to blame for this? No. Is the US a root cause of this problem? Sometimes, yes.

But this whole discussion is pointless because the US would never be able to persue an isolationist policy. American corporations have global interests and they have the power to lobby the US government to act internationally.

A bigger question is whether the US government should persue a unilateralist foreign policy or a multilaterist policy.

If the US wants to go around doing what it wants to do then don't expect universal support from other countries.

A better option is the multilateralist approach. Yes, it takes longer. Yes, sometimes things won't go the way the US wants it to go. But in the long run it will be better just as democracy is better than a dictatorship even if it takes longer to make decisions.

However, this is not a black or white issue. The US needs to show the rest of the world that there will be times when it will not come to the rescue. The US needs to say, at the right time, this is your problem, deal with it. That's the only way to get areas like Europe to start carrying their fair share.

	25-04-2003 10:02									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai DD: Do you really think the US has never made a mistake, that it has never caused any problems, that it is just an innocent bystander responding to events, but never initiating events?

I just don't believe that the US is a source of a lot of the world's problems. I never said that we were perfect. However, I seem to have more faith in the ability of other countries to cause thier own problems than some people though.

quote: A bigger question is whether the US government should persue a unilateralist foreign policy or a multilaterist policy.

It depends on the issue at hand.

	25-04-2003 10:05									#49
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Isolationism is for fools. Build a time machine and go back to Pearl Harbor December 7, 1941. Have fun.

	25-04-2003 10:05									#50
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er, correction. old gw hated political parties, not keggers.

	25-04-2003 10:23									#51
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Isolationist now? We have the best foreign invasion army in the world. What a waste it would be to close up shop now when we will never be this dominating again. We might as well kick all the *ss we can now. We got Cuba, Syria, NK, and Iran still to invade before wmd get any more numerous. I think GWB can do it if we give him 4 more years.

	25-04-2003 11:19									#52
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I think we really ought to pull our troops out of the ME ASAP. It is quite clear to me that our presence is unduly inflamatory. In due course, maybe never, the world of Islam will want to join the modern world. But until then, we should let them mature at their own pace - that is, unless they threaten us or our allies.

We should give Iraq our best shot at a democracy. But how can one have a democracy when the religious clerics want a theocracy? The people themselves have to want to live in a democracy. Otherwise, the ayatollahs will soon take over, as they did in Iran.

I actually now forsee a civil war in Iraq after we leave, because I do not believe the other peoples of Iraq will want to live under Shi'ite rule.

As to Korea - I also agree that we should simply pull out. The South Koreans are now attacking us if we walk down the streets of Seoul. They seem to believe that Korea is better off without the US. So why fight this? I am sure the average GI on the border no longer is willing to die for the sake of the South Koreans.

And so on and so on. The cold war is over. Dissident is largely right. If we view each situation in isolation, there appears to a strong case to be made for an American pullout across the board.

	25-04-2003 11:44									#53
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If the Shiites really get out of control, we just encourage the Sunnis and Kurds to go their own way.s We will also give the Rumailah oil fields to the Kuwaitis as war reparation. If the Shia state decides to attack, we will get our chance to crush them and shoot all those crazy clerics.

	25-04-2003 11:46									#54
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Screw being isolationist! We should send our army on a worldwide tour .

	25-04-2003 12:06									#55
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OK I am exaggerrating pushing for total isolationism.

But Ned has a point. We aren't wanted in the middle east. We should not be there. Same with Korea.

And I disagree that pulling out of germany would do anything to Europe. Things are very different in Europe now than they were 70 years ago. Russia taking over Central Europe? Not likely. They can't even control former soviet republics. Germany rearming? Not likely as well. Too much anarchism over there.

And I heard France's economy is hurting pretty bad. Even before the boycotts. I don't think other European economy's are doing any better. Some countries may adopt a Euro as a backup currency. But most will continues to use the U.S. dollar. It is still mroe stable than any other currency. And being the worlds' only superpower plays into that as well. I actually forsee problems in Europe. One; England will not adopt the Euro- not with france trying to dominate the EU. And France and Germany may undermine the whole EU. Think about it. They were against us, yet we still had support from central and eatern European countries. There is nothing united about the EU if you ask me.

	25-04-2003 12:19									#56
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The Euro exchange rate has increased from 90 cents US a year ago to about US$1.10. Seems like the Euro is the currency to hold.

	25-04-2003 12:29									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The Euro exchange rate has increased from 90 cents US a year ago to about US$1.10. Seems like the Euro is the currency to hold.

Doesn't mean anything. In the mid 80s, the US Dollar soared to amazing height, just to fall totally flat a few years later.

For a while in early nineteeth, the Dollar fell to much lower level than today, only to recover few years later.

The economic foundation of a country is everything. With unemployment above 10%, net capital outflow, record bankrupcy level, and exorbant job creation costs, France and Germany won't go very far. Nobody will be sucking up to losers.

	25-04-2003 13:03									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Doesn't mean anything. In the mid 80s, the US Dollar soared to amazing height, just to fall totally flat a few years later. For a while in early nineteeth, the Dollar fell to much lower level than today, only to recover few years later. The economic foundation of a country is everything. With unemployment above 10%, net capital outflow, record bankrupcy level, and exorbant job creation costs, France and Germany won't go very far. Nobody will be sucking up to losers.

It doesn't mean anything? Do the math. If you took US$10,000 and changed it into Euros a year ago and a year later switched it back to US$, you would have made a profit of 21%.

And why did that happen? It wasn't because of a change in the "economic foundation of a country". The Euro's value has increased because the uncertainty of the US economy.

That uncertainty is still there as investors are not completely sure about what the Bush administration will do next.

Mind you, war victories are always good for the US stock market. I figure US stocks could be attractive in September, assuming the US doesn't start another war.

	25-04-2003 13:18									#59
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you may have had the support of some european governements in the war against iraq, but in no european country other than england a majority of the people was pro war ...

and as far as the loser part goes, germany and france have a smaller unemployment pctage than most states of the US ... So economically spoken, who is exactely the loser here ?

	25-04-2003 13:19									#60
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As I have pointed with past examples, fluctuations in currency values are normal.

Anyone who believe that Euro will replace the Dollar as the new global currency should look at the economic realities of France and Germany.