25-04-2003 13:20									#61
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis and as far as the loser part goes, germany and france have a smaller unemployment pctage than most states of the US ... So economically spoken, who is exactely the loser here ?

Back up with statistics, dear Settler.

	25-04-2003 13:22									#62
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Mississippi is probably the only state they can beat.

wow, I'm impressed. A European country is more powerful than our poorest redneck state.

	25-04-2003 13:31									#63
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis and as far as the loser part goes, germany and france have a smaller unemployment pctage than most states of the US ... So economically spoken, who is exactely the loser here ?

You've a lot further to go in your integration before this comparison can logically be made.

	25-04-2003 13:33									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Mississippi is probably the only state they can beat. wow, I'm impressed. A European country is more powerful than our poorest redneck state.

This "European country" is economically the most powerful one in Europe: Germany.

	25-04-2003 13:34									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless As I have pointed with past examples, fluctuations in currency values are normal. Anyone who believe that Euro will replace the Dollar as the new global currency should look at the economic realities of France and Germany.

The dollar isn't going to be replaced, but Euro is going to share a similar role, albeit smaller role. That's already happening with various central banks holding reserves of Euros and Dollars. It's a good hedge.

All I know is that I'm going to start paying more attention to the Euro market. A 20 per cent return in a year! I wish I had bought Euros instead of Canadian dollars last year, although still made money on the Canadian deal.

	25-04-2003 13:39									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai All I know is that I'm going to start paying more attention to the Euro market. A 20 per cent return in a year! I wish I had bought Euros instead of Canadian dollars last year, although still made money on the Canadian deal.

I'm glad you made some gains.

I'm never good at gambling, whether it's roulette, blackjack, stocks, or currency.

	25-04-2003 13:42									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We've never been isolationist. Why should we start now?

A little history lesson for you then:
Before world war II, the USA has never fought a war outside the american continent. The problems of the rest of the world, are not the USA problems. Thats isolationism. A good example is WW I.

The isolation strategy was abandoned after the famous Pearl Harbor incident and has up to now never returned. No country on earth has so many soldiers outside its own borders as the USA. USA is the biggest supplier of army goods. Of that, the USA army is the biggest customer of its own army economy.

9/11 has not to do with isolationism. It has to do with a different approach of war. Besides the traditional war as in country vs. country, terrorist attack became a significant treat.

	25-04-2003 13:44									#68
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Lies and statistics

Stats from The Economist has US unemployment at 5.8%. Unemployment in the Euro area is at 8.1%, which includes Germany's 10.6% and France's 9.2%.

However, The Economist also noted that while the US unemployment rate stayed the same during the past year, two million jobs in the US have been cut since March 2001. So the real unemployment rate in the US is higher than 5.8%.

	25-04-2003 13:46									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Mississippi is probably the only state they can beat. wow, I'm impressed. A European country is more powerful than our poorest redneck state.

The most recent unemployment figures I can find show:

Mississippi: 6.0%*
Germany: 11.1%**

* Unemployment state by state

** Shock surge in German jobless

	25-04-2003 13:48									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless I'm glad you made some gains. I'm never good at gambling, whether it's roulette, blackjack, stocks, or currency.

"Some" is the operative word. I'm still digging my way out from investing in high-tech and Internet stocks.

	25-04-2003 13:56									#71
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quote: Originally posted by woke26 Thats isolationism.

No, it isn't.

	25-04-2003 14:31									#72
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ok, but the unemployment figures are based upon the number of people who are entitled to a social security payment... and since in europe the criteria are a lot lower than in the us those figures are incorrect in the first place.

	25-04-2003 14:33									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc No, it isn't.

whats your definition of isolationism?

	25-04-2003 19:25									#74
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quote: Originally posted by woke26 A little history lesson for you then: Before world war II, the USA has never fought a war outside the american continent. The problems of the rest of the world, are not the USA problems. Thats isolationism. A good example is WW I. The isolation strategy was abandoned after the famous Pearl Harbor incident and has up to now never returned. No country on earth has so many soldiers outside its own borders as the USA. USA is the biggest supplier of army goods. Of that, the USA army is the biggest customer of its own army economy. 9/11 has not to do with isolationism. It has to do with a different approach of war. Besides the traditional war as in country vs. country, terrorist attack became a significant treat.

If this is a history lesson, you suck as a teacher. Ever heard of the Spanish American War. How do you think we got the Phillipines? That was 1898 or so and we fought battles in Manila. Really, it was this war that signaled the changing of the guard and the emergence of the US as a global power.

Before then, going back to the War of 1812 against the British, John Paul Jones took a rag tag navy to actually attack Britain. This was our first projection of forces abroad.

	25-04-2003 23:48									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Frogman Before then, going back to the War of 1812 against the British, John Paul Jones took a rag tag navy to actually attack Britain.

Eh? That's the first I've heard of that one.

	26-04-2003 00:04									#76
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American Marines were in China back in the days of the Boxer Rebellion - year 1900 or so.

	26-04-2003 01:52									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Eh? That's the first I've heard of that one.

My bad, I don't know why I placed JPJ in the War of 1812. It was actually the revolutionary war, but he did raid the British in the North Sea. Here's the quick bio.

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib...ml/jpjones.html

	26-04-2003 07:14									#78
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It's ironic that the American victory leaves the US in a no-win situation.

If the US pulls out of Iraq, as Diss and Ned suggest, then there will be a power vacuum. The most organised group at the moment are the fundamentalist Shites so they will likely gain power. A fundamentalist government in Iraq would destablise Jordan, Saudi Arabi, Kuwait and other neighbouring nations. That would threaten the US oil supply. A fundamentalist government would also likely provide support for terrorist activities against the US.

If the US maintains its occupation force in Iraq then, as others have mentioned, it will only serve to inflame anti-American attitudes.

So basically the US is screwed no matter what it does.

	26-04-2003 07:24									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai So basically the US is screwed no matter what it does.

At this point we can hardly pull out and let the mullahs run the country. Who cares if the arabs are pissed at us, thats nothing new. We didn't get into this war to make them love us in the first place.

I saw a new commentator make an interesting point in that the mosques were the only institution that Saddam couldn't fully bring down and now that he is gone, they are the only institutions with any organization and leadership. That gives them a head start, but if we can get some other groups some power, namely the kurds, perhaps there is still hope that they can actually live with some basic freedoms.

	26-04-2003 07:50									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Frogman If this is a history lesson, you suck as a teacher. Ever heard of the Spanish American War. How do you think we got the Phillipines? That was 1898 or so and we fought battles in Manila. Really, it was this war that signaled the changing of the guard and the emergence of the US as a global power. Before then, going back to the War of 1812 against the British, John Paul Jones took a rag tag navy to actually attack Britain. This was our first projection of forces abroad.

Er ...ever hear of the "Shores of Tripoli" from the Marine Corp anthem?

That is North Africa and 1803.

	26-04-2003 07:53									#81
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Tinkai and Frogman - you tend to ignore the fact that we will eventually withdraw from Iraq. The Shi'ites can then take over if they want. There is nothing we can do about it if the Shi'ites remain fundamentally anti-democractic. They have to change or we have to stay. Since we cannot stay, the future is foretold.

	26-04-2003 08:12									#82
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I don't think anyone is pre-destined to take over a country. The fundamentalist are in the best position to take power, but other alternatives could arise over time. Many muslim countries do not have fundamentalist governments.

	26-04-2003 08:34									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Tinkai and Frogman - you tend to ignore the fact that we will eventually withdraw from Iraq. The Shi'ites can then take over if they want. There is nothing we can do about it if the Shi'ites remain fundamentally anti-democractic. They have to change or we have to stay. Since we cannot stay, the future is foretold.

We can always go back in I have no great faith in the ability of the US to get democracy established in Iraq, but we can't leave without at least getting something a chance.

Doomed to failure you say, perhaps. All we can do is try and hope whatever takes hold won't be as repressive and as dangerous as Saddam. That shouldn't be too hard.

	26-04-2003 08:36									#84
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After the American Revolution untill the WWII, the US did not leave really leave isolationism untill around the Spanish-American war. And then soon after returned to mostly isolationist. The nation had more important domestic matters to concern it self with then the mess that was occuring in Europe in the 19th century. President Wilson was re-elected based on the fact that he kept the US out of WWI, his isolationist policies that were dropped soon after his re-election. Election Wilson showed the isolationist mood in the nation at 1916. Then when the stock market crash came, again the US public, as well as the other countries of the world, had to worry themselves about domestic maters. It was not untill after WWII that the US put itself in center stage in world affairs, this was to combat the Soviet Union. In order for the US to survive it had to put itself in world affairs and beat the U.S.S.R. this way.

It would be impossible to completely withdraw from world affairs. The US is too deep in world affairs that it is nessasary to keep stability, especialy in many weaker countries. Many countries in the world depend on US financial aid, as well as for food. If the US were to be isolationist, it would in turn mean a stop of aid. This would cause famine and chaos in countries recieving aid.

Any comments or additions? I am free to see them.

	26-04-2003 09:14									#85
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Well, Dissident, you are right, of course. But don't expect any support. Comments like "Are you insane, or just stupid" just show the limited intellect (or national interest) of the people typing them.
We need to think creatively about what is truly in our best interests, NOT what will get us the most applause at the UN.

	26-04-2003 11:24									#86
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well pulling out all at once is not feasible of course.

Esp. with regards to Iraq. I do want to stay in Iraq for up to a year or two. Some of you guys are big pessimists. Despite problems, I still have hope we can get a halfway decent goverment set up. Pulling out now, isn't feasible. They all hate us anyways, that is nothing new.

I do not see a need to be in germany. See my above post on how unlikely the chance is Russia or Germany will do anything. S. Korea we should wait a bit before pulling out. We have to resolve the N. Korea situation somehow. Or we just accept they have nukes and leave the responsibility to S. Korea. We will be blamed if N. Korea nukes S. Korea. For some reason everything is the U.S.'s fault.

I do recommend leaving Saudi Arabia. We aren't doing anything there. They never let us use our airfields there to attack other countries. Something is seriously wrong with Saudi Arabia. Why is such a rich country have so many terrorists? Interestingly, the oil rich middle eastern nations seem to produce the most fanatics and terrorists. I can't explain that.

we should stay in Afghanistan too. The lefties keep pointing out how bad it is over there. But the country has been like this for hundreds of years. And the lefties expect things to change over night. I do disagree with not allowing them to grow poppies. That is their best hope of bringing money into the country and rebuilding. I do have a glimmer of hope we can do something useful there.

But I would like to do a slow withdraw from world affairs. The only thing we need to do is ensure an adequate supply of oil. Basically if any dumbass nation cuts us off, we will have to attack them. But other than that, we really aren't needed in the middle east. Once we finish up Iraq, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia, I would like us to leave until we are needed again. the CIA should stay though. We have seen how useful the CIA is with this current conflict. So when we do need to attack again, we will already have the intel needed to do it.

	26-04-2003 13:27									#87
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Actually Rumsfeld addressed this topic today at his newsconference. He said he was considering redeploying US troops across the world. He was particularly concerned about keeping US troops where they were not wanted.

Read: Saudi Arabia

Also, potentially, South Korea, Germany and Turkey.

I almost feel sorry for South Korea. They elected an anti-American government exactly when North Korea has begun to beat the war drums seriously. The last time we pulled out, North Korea immediately attacked. Too bad most of the younger South Koreans now believe that the US caused the Korean War. (What kind of educational system do they have in that country to teach this to their kids?)

	26-04-2003 13:42									#88
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I just get so tired of everybody hating us. I just want to be liked

I can see the middle east hating us, they always have. But all this hatred towards the U.S. in Europe, Japan, and S. Korea bothers me. It didn't always used to be this way.

	26-04-2003 15:52									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I just get so tired of everybody hating us. I just want to be liked

You can always move to Canada. Everyone likes us.

	26-04-2003 21:26									#90
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Middle East has only hated us since we started our support for Israel. So basically for the last 50 years or so. If Israel had never been created, or the U.S. were to have withdrawn support for Israel a lont time ago, you would see a drastically different mood in the Middle East. To what I know Osama did 9/11 because of our support for Israel.

NOTE: I am not saying we should not support Israel, I am just saying that is why the Middle East hates us.