25-04-2003 04:58									#1
	What do the US and Somalia have in common? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Apparently the US and Somalia are the only two countries in the World not to have signed the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child...

Can someone please tell me why this is the case?

At least Somalia has an excuse, being a lawless anarchy and a hotbed for international terrorism...

	25-04-2003 05:09									#2
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well, silly, it's because in the us, children are never abused.

	25-04-2003 05:11									#3
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The UN is irrelevant, remember?

	25-04-2003 06:23									#4
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Look at it this way. The signatories include such notable bastions of human rights and stringent child labor law enforcement as Thailand, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, and Indonesia.

The fact that someone signs an international treaty is insignificant. It's what they do or fail to do that counts.

	25-04-2003 06:29									#5
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We dont wanna sign it because it increases the minimum wage of soldiers from 16 to 18. The US army accepts recruits starting at the age of 16, and they dont want to change that.

	25-04-2003 06:29									#6
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Signing the latest UN treaty really is not the end of all of life's problems.

	25-04-2003 06:36									#7
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What? US Army accepts 16 year olds? Under 18 year olds? Is this true?

	25-04-2003 06:39									#8
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Signing a piece of paper is easy. Every crook, liar, gangster, and charlatan can do that.

	25-04-2003 06:39									#9
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no it doesn't... you can go to a military 'school' at 16...

	25-04-2003 06:41									#10
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Albert Speer, ah, thanks for correction.

	25-04-2003 06:45									#11
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though i think in the world wars the army did have 16 year old volunteers... hell there even was a 14 year old who claimed to be his older brother

	25-04-2003 06:46									#12
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also i assume a 17 year old high school graduate (just a year early) would get accepted...

	25-04-2003 06:49									#13
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16 is the minimum age you can enlist with the army.

	25-04-2003 06:49									#14
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Speer, you don't know what you're talking about. With written consent of a parent or legal guardian, a minor who is past his seventeenth birthday can enter the US Armed forces. Until not too long ago, the limit was sixteen, but the ability to meet recruiting quotas has upped the requirements, and most MOS require high school diplomas, however, non high school graduates can enlist regardless of age, they are just restricted in the MOS they can sign up for.

The youngest KIA in Vietnam was a 16 year old Marine.

	25-04-2003 06:52									#15
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MtG:

what did I say? Army accepts 18 year olds generally but a 17 year old High school graduate will be accepted... i also said that the world wars did result in enlistment by 16 year olds...

if i dont know what i'm talking about then neither do you because you repeated me

	25-04-2003 06:55									#16
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why didnt we sign it anyway? did this treaty require us to ban beating children or something?

	25-04-2003 06:55									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer MtG: what did I say? Army accepts 18 year olds generally but a 17 year old High school graduate will be accepted... i also said that the world wars did result in enlistment by 16 year olds... if i dont know what i'm talking about then neither do you because you repeated me

I had a forum hiccup when repositioning text in my post, it autoposted without the highlighted text.

I edited to clarify that the only issue wrt high school graduation is availability of MOS. Since combat branch MOS are the hardest to fill, especially infantry (11-Bravo, Charlie, Delta or Mike), there's no problem for a 17 year old dropout to join up in the Army or Marines. Things are a little tighter in the Navy and especially the Air Force, but that's just because of the different MOS they are looking for.

	25-04-2003 06:59									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Look at it this way. The signatories include such notable bastions of human rights and stringent child labor law enforcement as Thailand, Malaysia, Sri Lanka, and Indonesia. The fact that someone signs an international treaty is insignificant. It's what they do or fail to do that counts.

And it can be argued that the most powerful nation in the world not signing it makes a mockery of the convention, encouraging those nations - many of whose child labour is probably working in US clothing sweatshops such as Nike, Gap etc...

Secondly as you point out actions speak louder than words given that the US is the only industrialised nation in the world that executes its own children!

So at least it is being honest about that fact that it is abusing accepted human rights...

	25-04-2003 07:28									#19
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Name me some children we've executed and why.

And if an international treaty or convention is signed by a bunch of shithole countries that don't even pretend to abide by it's requirements, it's already a mockery. We just don't legitimize that mockery by endorsing it.

As far as who benefits from child labor, I'm no fan of multinational corporations who abuse third world labor, but they didn't create the abusive labor practices, they just moved to where they exist. And where are your clothes made?

	25-04-2003 11:28									#20
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I'm not sure what it is now.

But back when I joined you neede parental permission to join the service under 18. I was 17 when I joined.

The other requirement was you had to turn 18 when you are in boot camp or earlier.

	25-04-2003 13:10									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer why didnt we sign it anyway? did this treaty require us to ban beating children or something?

The reason we didn't sign it was that it would have made our practice of allowing 17 year olds to enlist illegal. IIRC everything else in the convention is already illegal here, and has been for almost a century.

	25-04-2003 13:12									#22
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quote: At least Somalia has an excuse, being a lawless anarchy and a hotbed for international terrorism...

Actually, life has improved there quite a bit because of anarchy.

	25-04-2003 13:22									#23
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As you might know, the "brightest beacon for freedom and democracy" is illegally keeping children at the Guantanamo camp...

http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/1...amo_camp+.shtml

Last edited by Combat Ingrid on 25-04-2003 at 15:16

	25-04-2003 15:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid As you might know, the "brightest beacon for freedom and democracy" is illegally keeping underage children at the Guantanamo camp...

How can children be underage? And under what law is it illegal to detain people engaging in military action against you?

	25-04-2003 15:18									#25
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Edited out "underage"...
In response to your second question: how about international law? Not that international law applies to the US, of course

	25-04-2003 15:31									#26
	Re: What do the US and Somalia have in common? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS Apparently the US and Somalia are the only two countries in the World not to have signed the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child... Can someone please tell me why this is the case?

because else they would have to set the children free, which are held in the guantanamo camp.
those stupid bastards.

here´s one link about it:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/justin/w...2apr2003-35.htm

and here´s some more:
http://www.google.de/search?q=guant...9-1&hl=de&meta=


oops, appearently I haven´t been the first one posting about it.
remarkable about the google link is, there seems to be no source from cnn or fox, let away New York Post. I wonder how it comes

	25-04-2003 17:16									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Actually, life has improved there quite a bit because of anarchy.

Would that be the anarchy of the de facto states of Somaliland and Puntland or the anarchy of the organised Islamic councils in the south of the country? Perhaps the anarchy of the never-heard-from-again government in Mogadishu that was formed a few years back.

The north of the country is halfway decently organised and people are finding local authority in the rest of it. Its just that when people think of Somalia, they think of "Black Hawk Down" and starved masses.

Either way, it's not classical political anarchist theory in action. The State just got replaced with a handful of semi-adhoc States, not a State-less society.

	25-04-2003 19:33									#28
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quote: What do the US and Somalia have in common?

We're both run by corrupt leaders.

	25-04-2003 19:41									#29
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quote: The reason we didn't sign it was that it would have made our practice of allowing 17 year olds to enlist illegal. IIRC everything else in the convention is already illegal here, and has been for almost a century.

That's the answer, folks.

Gitmo? From the Globe article posted by Ingrid:

quote: The juveniles, described as between the ages of 13 and 15, were declared ''enemy combatants'' when they were arrested fighting against US troops in Central Asia...

Cry me a ****ing river.

-Arrian

	25-04-2003 19:44									#30
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This troll keeps popping up every couple months. I already posted this once before. You really need to find some fresh topics.

quote: IIRC, at least one reason the US has not ratified this treaty is that it would require the explicit consent of both parents in order to undertake an international adoption. Since most international adoptees are abandoned by their parents (e.g., China) this would effectively halt international adoptions, leaving thousands of children each year in orphanages or worse. The US is by far the largest destination of international adpotees, and is currently negotiating to amend the treaty in this regard.