26-04-2003 15:53									#61
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Is there any reason we couldn't post both Aeson's and FP's revised stories - perspectives on the war from two different places? A tweak or two might be needed to ensure consistency - I haven't done a detailed check - but the two basic story lines don't seem inherently incompatible.

	26-04-2003 15:59									#62
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I was thinking the same, the problem is they really are 2 different stories... and FP's seem to be only half his story, as it doesn't mention the leader.

DeepO

	26-04-2003 16:19									#63
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I had no intention of mentioning the leader. Apart from a few small revisions to ensure consistency and to avoid releasing sensitive information (I'll get to that in a minute) my story is finished. If it's too long nobody will read it anyway.

	26-04-2003 16:41									#64
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FP, everybody will read it, I don't think you know how well you can capture tension. I would have read another 10 pages worth of story...

DeepO

	26-04-2003 16:46									#65
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Thanks mate.

I've made the changes to make it sound like the city with the Great Lighthouse is further away from the front line. You could read it either way, I think, I don't believe it really tells them anything that's valuable to them.

I'm happy with it in it's current form. After the next turn I will write another little section that continues the story. I can't really write more right now, since we won't know what happens until we play the next turn.

	26-04-2003 16:51									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Shouldn't we answer that although we're not certain what is happening, there can be positive WW effects? We are strat forum guys after all, this would only be fair to the rest of the teams...

Hmmm... tricky.

my 0.02 cents = If anybody asks about this in the Strat forum we give an answer to the best of our knowledge, telling them all we know about how we think WW works in PBEM games. If they only post comments in the demogame forum we keep out mouths shut.

They should be able to figure it out for themselves anyway ... except Lego I suppose, since they haven't declared war on anyone yet.

	26-04-2003 16:54									#67
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a few final remarks: "costal" should prolly be "coastal"
and "it was not made for chariots." to "it was not made for chickens."?

Further, it looks to me like you can post it. But still, mentioning nothing on the leader feels strange... perhaps Aeson can post his as well, once he gets back online

DeepO

	26-04-2003 16:57									#68
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I don't know about the WW things. It would certainly disadvantage us, but I think it's fair to tell them what we know. We're still friends here, over the teams, instead of only in-team.

DeepO

	26-04-2003 17:29									#69
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO a few final remarks: "costal" should prolly be "coastal"

Thanks. I've fixed that and a few other typos.

	26-04-2003 17:37									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I don't know about the WW things. It would certainly disadvantage us, but I think it's fair to tell them what we know. We're still friends here, over the teams, instead of only in-team. DeepO

If you talk about the "war unweariness", it's a well known phenomenon, and there's no need to publish this. It takes place if somebody declares war on you (and not when you declare war) and lasts till a point, where (too many?) units are killed within your cultural borders. I can't serve with exact numbers, but that's the way it works, btw not only in PBEM games, and it is no news. Have you never noticed in a SP game, when you are a Republic or Democracy, somebody sneak attacks you and your people celebrate?

	26-04-2003 17:59									#71
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SR, certainly I noticed it before, but that's exactly the point. Bigfree makes it sound like there is no effect at all, neither positive or negative. But we know there is a positive effect, just no negative one. This can be easily exploited, and I wonder if GoW used this: we declared war to them (granted, they were in our territory at the time), so they should become happier... so in fact, it is a dirty trick to perform. Even if it is a known phenomena, we didn't anticipate it really well, and we should have known... I don't think all the other teams know about this, or realise it is happening here too. As long as they don't get attacked, they won't see it.

DeepO

	26-04-2003 18:05									#72
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They need to play their game on their own. If they want help, they can post in the strat forum (like Eli did in his WCs vs. Immortals thread) or get some PBEM experience.

	26-04-2003 18:08									#73
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I'd rather if GoW wouldn't know about this / wouldn't consider this and pick Monarchy.

	26-04-2003 18:41									#74
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well the discussion between monarchy and republic is still a valid one, as monarchy will be better if you have many small cities, and many troops. I don't know for sure, but I think for the time being, GoW would have been better of in Monarchy, it can save them up to 44 gold on upkeep, which offsets their extra commerce. Only when towns start to grow to cities is it worth it, for us, certainly republic is the better choice.

Of course, choosing monarchy means you will need to switch later on, again facing anarchy

DeepO

	26-04-2003 18:43									#75
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Oh, and of course MPs help too, although GoW has an extra lux from RP now, and doesn't have big cities to face happiness in.

BTW, I think they have 10 towns, meaning 40 free units, not 44 as said above (too lazy to edit)

DeepO

	26-04-2003 19:38									#76
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Shouldn't we wait one turn before disclosing Ramses?

	26-04-2003 19:40									#77
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why? Vox can't help it anyway, and I doubt that they'll change their plans based on us getting a leader.

Having lost 6 units is something else, though...

DeepO

	26-04-2003 19:43									#78
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Personally, I don't think we should announce a thing. Just rush the wonder and let that be our "announcement"

Of course, the one problem we'll have with this plan of radio silence is that I'd imagine it too, will be seen as further signs of our "arrogance and elitism"

"See!? Look at snooty ol' GS.....Vox gives out their Daily War Reports in the spirit of Role Playing, and all we get from GS is stony silence!"

Of course, truly, it's a case of no matter what we do, someone will misread it.

-=Vel=-

	26-04-2003 21:42									#79
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Good stories, guys.

I think we should post 'em... just as Vox is about to get the turn.

-Arrian

	26-04-2003 22:08									#80
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Two different story lines certainly are going to confuse the rest, so that's okay. They can't complain we don't give enough info now, they can even pick which information minister they like most

DeepO

	26-04-2003 22:20									#81
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Hmm, though the wonder mentioning should only be done when we actually got it..
We came close making fools of ourselves when going public on the Pyramids, let's not do that again

	27-04-2003 01:06									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Personally, I don't think we should announce a thing. Just rush the wonder and let that be our "announcement" Of course, the one problem we'll have with this plan of radio silence is that I'd imagine it too, will be seen as further signs of our "arrogance and elitism" "See!? Look at snooty ol' GS.....Vox gives out their Daily War Reports in the spirit of Role Playing, and all we get from GS is stony silence!" Of course, truly, it's a case of no matter what we do, someone will misread it. -=Vel=-

I don't agree with the no matter what we do bit.

Caesar knew, the secret is in the bread and circuses. Most of the people in this game are in it for fun. Our keeping to ourselves would only reinforce the image that some have that we do not want to participate 'with them' but only 'against them'.

I would favour seeing both published. They are different views of the same events, and I sense FP has sequels in mind.

A chicken reference can be worked in later in the thread after some conversation among others. I think a passing comment would do the trick. Something along the lines of the exact disposition and use of the Storm Chickens being a state secret.

	27-04-2003 01:25									#83
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I sense FP has sequels in mind.

The force is strong with this one.

	27-04-2003 01:51									#84
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I also favor publishing both. It's fun, and nothing untoward is disclosed.

Storm Chickens and (bananas ) should be part of all trash talk.

	27-04-2003 02:38									#85
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We need to get something out there.

Vox has the turn.

	27-04-2003 03:32									#86
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I went ahead and posted a slightly revised version.

I think you should post your's too FP (as noted, keeping Hurricane's location as indefinite as possible). I look forward to reading the second part!

	27-04-2003 03:55									#87
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Hmm, good point NYE..
-
Ha, finally, Theseus found himself an avatar
Good, makes it easier to spot your posts
Come on Arrian, you too now

	27-04-2003 03:56									#88
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I've posted my story in Aeson's thread.

	27-04-2003 06:45									#89
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Let me clarify then. What I mean is.....the other teams can "just" role play, or "just" trash talk, but when we do so, we must tread very carefully and measure each and every thing we say. This is so because, rightly or wrongly, we are seen as the arrogant team. If something we can can be misconstrued and given an arrogant slant, it seems it will be. The only truly safe course I've seen so far is our self-depreciating humor, which seems to be greeted warmly enough. 'bout everything else tho, and it's "there they go again".

Having just read Aeson's post, and FP's follow-up, I am hopeful that we can turn the tide of popular opinion, but it won't be easy, and it won't be overnight.

-=Vel=-

	27-04-2003 11:59									#90
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You have the essence of most of it, Vel.

There is one other element though. Most of the players, and certainly leaders, of other teams are familiar with each other from the SPDG. That gives them a leg up in many matters.

Aside from that, what has penalised us first is who many of us are. You need not feel sorry, but your name intimidates the hell out of many of our opponents. Aeson, Theseus, Sir Ralph, Arrian, nbarclay, alexman, DeepO, etc, etc, reinforce any complexes that may be out there.

Second, we have penalised ourselves. Comments about Voxidiots or some such have seeped out to the public forums from time to time. Comments about the inferiority of others, or the superiority of 'us' may have little effect when made by unknowns, or those not known for prowess. However, when they come from people well respected for ability they chafe mightily on many people. McEnroe or Ali, anyone?

Those are some of the reasons that I feel positive communication, such as Aeson's and FPs stories are important for us. We are participating. Far from being arrogant, we belittle the great leader. It is the charioteer who is truely the hero. It is not us who did the good thing. It is the RNG that elevated a jelly donut seeker to the exalted status of a great leader.

The course of any good champion to follow... Humility. Friendly, and humble. Self-depreciating to some is simply humble to others. It is not so much calling ourselves down, as participating, granting that others have good things going for them, and have done well that will turn this tide. Well, that and realising that Vox did catch us with our pants down, and that this still is far from a notch in our victory belt.