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VetLegion
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Some things I was wondering about, and since we have many Israelis here I hope I can get accurate answers.
1. Military service is 3 years for men, women not obligatory any more, right?
2. Are there excuses you can use not to serve, like moral objections..?
3. Is there a civil service that counts like army service for those with moral objections?
4. Can you vote while you are in the army?
5. Do you lose your voting franchise if you do not serve in the army? Do you go to jail?
6. Can you hold a public office, or be a politician, if you havent served in the army?
7. Are there other things because of which you should prefer to serve?
On another forum there was a discussion about Starship Troopers by R.A.Heinlein (you have probably seen the movie). Whenever I see a discussion like that someone inevitably calls Heinlein a fascist because in the book you can not vote or hold public office if you havent served your time, so in effect only veterans have power.
I argued that first, that is not fascist, and secondly that while not exactly the same thing there already are some countries where the effect is the same, like in Israel where military service (with no excuse for moral objections) is obligatory so if you run for public office you have already served your time and in effect veterans are in power - just like in Starship Troopers 
Ok friendly apolyton zionists, how far off was I? 
btw., I don't need numbered answeres, I am just interested in your opinions on the matter.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:27
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A man who lives in a country with mandatory service and doesn't serve can not be trusted! It's everyones duty and everyone should feel lucky to have that opportunity. To turn that opportunity down is a crime punishable by loss of honour and trust forever!
Last edited by Pekka on 26-04-2003 at 04:46
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Firelad
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Haifa, Israel.
May 2002
time: 07:27
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1. Obligatory for both men and women, 3 years plus reserve service for men, 2 years for women (mostly).
2. Theoretically, those with moral objections have the right to not serve in the army. Practically, only women have this right, because the Army turns down virtually every request by men. (something like 15 men out of thousands were given the right since the beginning of the intifada and all of them were reservists with little value to the Army). Men often resort to methods like faking insanity to get a release on medical/psychological grounds.
3. Again, only for women.
4. Yes.
5. You go to jail if you do not serve without getting a release. Jail times vary, but generally it's a month of jail time after you refuse, with a new conscription order afterwards. When you refuse again, you go to jail again. Lately they've started giving court martials (up to 3 years in jail) after about half a year, but none of the trials have been concluded yet. You can still vote if you do not go to the Army, although many are calling to revoke this right.
5. I don't know the law. But certainly, there is absolutely no chance of winning anything without a "good" army record.
6. Without serving, you can't get a job in the public sector. Also, you will be in trouble generally if people find out, since there is great animosity towards people who don't serve, esp. on moral grounds.
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Firelad
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Haifa, Israel.
May 2002
time: 07:27
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If you want to be a friggin fascist-theocratic-racist oligarchy then go ahead...
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VetLegion
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quote:
But certainly, there is absolutely no chance of winning anything without a "good" army record. |
Is good in quotes because of Sharon? I understhand what you mean though.
What about women? Do they fall for revolutionaries or regular patriots only?
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Sirotnikov
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<--- Yes, It's a "kitty" in a boot.
Feb 2000
time: 07:27
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1. Military service is 3 years for men, 2 (or 2.5) years for women.
2. Women can declare they object to serving because of faith issues. This was meant to be if she is an observant religious person, but it is also used for moral excuse, since in a way this is also a "faith issue". But you do IIRC have to show that you are doing some observing.
Men can either be found mentally problematic, or not fit for service. however some of this may hurt your future career, as your personal record will show you were found "mentally problematic" (though there was / is talk of cancelling this). Most people who don't want to serve falsify or play up health issues.
Men who refuse to serve will be put in jail for a month or two at a time, and after some 3-5 times like these, will be discharged of the service.
Men and Women of arab descent are not called to the army, as a matter of policy, though they aren't exempt by law. The law only states that they state can call on every citizen. The state, to this day, usually doesn't call arabs. Though many volunteer anyway.
3. One can serve in the police, or in the civil guard. But that is not because of moral objections. That is either if you were found fit for it, or if you volunteered to serve there (many non jews volunteer for police, civil guard, border patrol etc).
You can also "serve" in non military places like the ministry of security, but that is unique - you are called there. It's usually quite high ranking jobs.
4. Yes. There are special arrangements so that each person, be he in the army, in Israel or over seas can vote. This is well oversought and is very well done. Infact, the voting rate in the IDF is very very high. These people usually care for who will be choosing their next missions.
5. You don't lose voting franchise, neither from this nor from anything short of being expelled from the country iirc.
You do go to jail for a month or two, and that goes on 3 or 5 times, until the army quits, and discharges you.
There is talk however, that if you do not serve, you shouldn't be able to vote. It's unlikely this will come through though.
6. Yes. Look for example at new immigrants from russia who hold public offices and are politicians who didn't serve.
However, ther is also talk that this may change - ie that people who refused to serve, won't be able to hold public offices.
It seems logical to me, since i think that if you're unwilling to risk your butt, there's no reason why you should ever reach a position where you could potencially risk other people by your decisions.
7. People who serve get bonuses and tax cuts and such, since serving , and the 1 month training each year for some, take up time which could have been used to start a bussiness or a family.
But on the other hand, people who don't serve are free to work etc, so I don't think there's anything wrong with this.
There are also cases where employers unofficially prefer people who did serve in the army. Some even prefer people who served as combatants over people who served in an office. And obviously people who served as high ranking officers usually don't have troubles getting good jobs, due both to their friendships and ties, and that this is considered proof that you're a "serious and talented person".
Infact a friend of mine wrote a paper in sociology on the topic of why in Israel, military stature is tied a good quality for people holding public offices. His POV was quite critical, though understanding.
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gsmoove23
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What about the religious exemptions for orthodox jews. Isn't there some loophole where they are exempt from serving but get the same benefits?
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VetLegion
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quote:
What about the religious exemptions for orthodox jews. Isn't there some loophole where they are exempt from serving but get the same benefits? |
Good question, I also remember hearing something like that... ?
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26-04-2003 04:15
and a polar bear named Mukka and trained to kill. Nobody messes with The Finns 
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