26-04-2003 23:53									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How did you misquote Imran in your quote Agathon? That's just weird.

My guess is that he edited his post after I quoted it. Either that or the Apolyton server is a friend of Bentham's.

	26-04-2003 23:54									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No - that is very bad.

Plato seems distinclty unpopular here, besides with ....you.

Thinking about Philosopher kings, aren't we Agathon?

	26-04-2003 23:55									#33
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It's quite a shoddily-designed test. Too much metaethics (which most philosophers, at least in this selection, only dealt with as a side issue), too few questions about how the mechanics of moral law-making is supposed to function. They do some sort of half-arsed attempts to hide blatant questions about specific philosopher in a general guise (I'm sure that "libery vs. society" question is really "do you agree with the utilitarians or not?"), they should have gone full-steam-ahead and presented longer, more complex models of each stage like they did with the religion test.

	26-04-2003 23:55									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: But it isn't philosophy. I would disagree strongly.

Where are the arguments and proofs? I mean Homer and Hesiod have views about the way the world is, but they aren't philosophers.

The best case for the Oriental thinkers is that they are on a par with the early pre-Parmenidean philosophers. And that's pushing it because those guys were scientific reductionists.

	26-04-2003 23:56									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No - that is very bad.

You like Plato? You some sort of ****ing fascist or something?

	26-04-2003 23:57									#36
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1. St. Augustine (100%)
2. Aquinas (78%)
3. Spinoza (74%)
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5. John Stuart Mill (58%)
6. Kant (56%)
7. Jeremy Bentham (54%)
8. Nel Noddings (50%)
9. Plato (44%)
10. Aristotle (42%)
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14. Cynics (31%)
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19. Thomas Hobbes (2%)

	26-04-2003 23:58									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed It's quite a shoddily-designed test. Too much metaethics (which most philosophers, at least in this selection, only dealt with as a side issue), too few questions about how the mechanics of moral law-making is supposed to function. They do some sort of half-arsed attempts to hide blatant questions about specific philosopher in a general guise (I'm sure that "libery vs. society" question is really "do you agree with the utilitarians or not?"), they should have gone full-steam-ahead and presented longer, more complex models of each stage like they did with the religion test.

I disagree. I think that metaethics is the way to go. All these philosophers had metaethical views which informed their normative views. If you want to know the similarities re: philosophy (i.e. the way you think about morality, rather than your values), it is a good test.

Most of the disagreement on this forum occurs because of differences in metaethical views anyway.

	26-04-2003 23:58									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon No - that is very bad.

Are you kidding? I've read The Republic from cover to cover and Plato's idea of the ideal society sickens me.

	26-04-2003 23:59									#39
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1. Jean-Paul Sartre (100%)

2. Kant (95%)

3. Spinoza (90%)

4. Jeremy Bentham (89%)

5. John Stuart Mill (82%)

Sartre surprised me too (and I also don´t know any of his works), Kant I know a bit, so I´m quite satisfied (because I like his ideas).

	26-04-2003 23:59									#40
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quote: Where are the arguments and proofs?

When did proofs become an integral part of philosophy? That's a distinctly Western concept, so I don't see why Eastern philosophy would incorporate it.

Confucianism, Daoism and Buddhism all qualify as philosophies in my view. Maybe you disagree, but claiming that they aren't "philosophy" just because they don't follow Western thought patterns doesn't fly.

	27-04-2003 00:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon The founder of utilitarianism and designer of strange prisons. You can look at him if you visit the University of London since his embalmed body is still on display. Here he is.

When I was there (University College, London) I heard the story about how his head was used as a rugby ball by one of the other colleges.


My #1 was Kant.

	27-04-2003 00:01									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed You like Plato? You some sort of ****ing fascist or something?

Accusations of fascism against Plato are deeply unfair for a few reasons.

1) It isn't clear that the Republic is supposed to be a blueprint for a feasible society. The text doesn't unequivocally support this.

2) In the later works the Statesman and the Laws, things are toned down quite a bit. The Laws is supposed to be a blueprint for a society.

3) Plato had been witness to a massive failure of a democratic state when it was beaten by an authoritarian regime. This had to affect his views.

4) Late Platonic legislation depends on the idea that the prospective inhabitants of the state to be constructed share little in the way of norms or customs.

	27-04-2003 00:03									#43
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	27-04-2003 00:04									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Where are the arguments and proofs? When did proofs become an integral part of philosophy? That's a distinctly Western concept, so I don't see why Eastern philosophy would incorporate it.

Proofs became an integral part of western philosophy after the publication of Parmenides' poem.

Philosophy or Philosophia in Greek is a word coined to describe what these people were doing. The rest of western philosophy is historically and conceptually related to what these people did. Philosophy is a western concept, unless these other people match up in an interesting way with the norms of this tradition, it isn't fair to call them philosophers.

	27-04-2003 00:06									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson Are you kidding? I've read The Republic from cover to cover and Plato's idea of the ideal society sickens me.

Presumably you skipped the bit where Socrates says that the city described in the Republic is "an image laid up in heaven" - a paradigm of justice. Plato was well aware that this wasn't a feasible scheme. That's why he wrote the Statesman and the Laws.

	27-04-2003 00:08									#46
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quote: How come I share so much with Az?

Spiff: because you're wise and benevolent, just like me.

anyway, don't wave your tongue at Mill. He's good. I am a die-hard utilitarian ( although the test might suggest otherwise)

	27-04-2003 00:08									#47
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Kant.

	27-04-2003 00:10									#48
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quote: 1. Kant (100%) Browse Kant related books. Click here for info 2. John Stuart Mill (85%) Browse John Stuart Mill related books. Click here for info 3. Jeremy Bentham (81%) Browse Jeremy Bentham related books. Click here for info 4. Prescriptivism (80%) Browse Prescriptivism related books. Click here for info 5. St. Augustine (70%) Browse St. Augustine related books. Click here for info 6. Aquinas (67%) Browse Aquinas related books. Click here for info 7. Nel Noddings (66%) Browse Nel Noddings related books. Click here for info 8. Spinoza (54%) Browse Spinoza related books. Click here for info 9. Jean-Paul Sartre (50%) Browse Jean-Paul Sartre related books. Click here for info 10. Epicureans (44%) Browse Epicureans related books. Click here for info 11. Plato (42%) Browse Plato related books. Click here for info 12. Ockham (35%) Browse Ockham related books. Click here for info 13. Ayn Rand (33%) Browse Ayn Rand related books. Click here for info 14. Stoics (31%) Browse Stoics related books. Click here for info 15. Nietzsche (29%) Browse Nietzsche related books. Click here for info 16. Aristotle (25%) Browse Aristotle related books. Click here for info 17. Cynics (17%) Browse Cynics related books. Click here for info 18. David Hume (17%) Browse David Hume related books. Click here for info 19. Thomas Hobbes (17%) Browse Thomas Hobbes related books. Click here for info

	27-04-2003 00:12									#49
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quote: as someone who does professional philosophy

Translation: "My name is Agathon, kneel before me as I look down upon you with disdain from my ivory tower."

1. Ayn Rand (100%)

2. John Stuart Mill (94%)

3. Jean-Paul Sartre (76%)

	27-04-2003 00:13									#50
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****ing incredible. Berz, with Mill in No.2.

	27-04-2003 00:15									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon All these philosophers had metaethical views which informed their normative views.

Indeed they did. I just don't think it is significant enough as a distinguishing factor (just look at me getting Kant, Mill and Rand as my first three choices, based on picking the "rational" answer every time) to truly be able to show people what philosopher they should look into more, which is surely the purpose of such a test.

I appreciate that for someone with a classical bent (such as yourself) the metaphysical portion must be important, but as interesting as questions of truth, necessity, reality and relativism are (and I took a term-long course in Metaethics a year ago) I think the way moral arguments are structured and the basic tenets of their interpretetion of human morality is more important.

Sure, one can argue about antirealism or whatever and make in interesting, but what I've always found fascinating about the nature of ethics (and part of metaethics) is that it explains and theorises about real, verifiable human behavior much more than any other branch of philosophy. It's not about pure thought and the nature of things, no, it has a starting point (morality and our way of thinking) and constructs models to explain why we're moral beings, and how to logically extend our morality. Why aren't those kinds of questions present in the test?

	27-04-2003 00:16									#52
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I only know Mill through his economic ideology, and though he isn't as crazy as Smith and Say, he is pretty much a free-for-all guy. Hence my tongue at him.

	27-04-2003 00:19									#53
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Mill always seemed to me like a "welfare state"ist. I agree almost fully with his ethical work though.

Read "Utilitarianism". It's available on the web. you'll see you'll agree with it.

	27-04-2003 00:22									#54
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Az, Mill always seemed to me to be a free marketer (like Spiffor says). He isn't crazy like some of our libertarians, but he is a market guy.

	27-04-2003 00:28									#55
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That's why I said "Welfare State"ist. Unless welfare state=socialism. ( Libertarians might just believe in that. )

Although I heard he described himself as a socialist.

	27-04-2003 00:29									#56
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orange - you and I were EXACTLY the same!

	27-04-2003 00:30									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Translation: "My name is Agathon, kneel before me as I look down upon you with disdain from my ivory tower."

What a load of cr@p. If a psychologist endorsed one of Red Jon's tests I suppose you'd take him seriously.

	27-04-2003 00:31									#58
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Well here's my results...

To return to the Ethical Philosophy Selector page with your current scores, use your back browser button.

1. Aristotle (100%)
2. Aquinas (90%)
3. Jeremy Bentham (76%)
4. Epicureans (73%)
5. Spinoza (72%)
6. John Stuart Mill (70%)
7. Ayn Rand (56%)
8. Stoics (55%)
9. Jean-Paul Sartre (51%)
10. Kant (51%)
11. Nietzsche (51%)
12. Cynics (48%)
13. David Hume (46%)
14. Ockham (44%)
15. Nel Noddings (37%)
16. Thomas Hobbes (36%)
17. St. Augustine (35%)
18. Prescriptivism (34%)
19. Plato (32%)

	27-04-2003 00:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Indeed they did. I just don't think it is significant enough as a distinguishing factor (just look at me getting Kant, Mill and Rand as my first three choices, based on picking the "rational" answer every time) to truly be able to show people what philosopher they should look into more, which is surely the purpose of such a test.

Well it depends on whether we think that normative or metaethical agreement is worth more. I always think ME is more philosophical, but there you go.

quote: I appreciate that for someone with a classical bent (such as yourself) the metaphysical portion must be important, but as interesting as questions of truth, necessity, reality and relativism are (and I took a term-long course in Metaethics a year ago) I think the way moral arguments are structured and the basic tenets of their interpretetion of human morality is more important.

In applied ethics it sure is. But this is a really modern and pragmatic view of it. When people think of philosophy they usually think of the old masters.

quote: Sure, one can argue about antirealism or whatever and make in interesting, but what I've always found fascinating about the nature of ethics (and part of metaethics) is that it explains and theorises about real, verifiable human behavior much more than any other branch of philosophy. It's not about pure thought and the nature of things, no, it has a starting point (morality and our way of thinking) and constructs models to explain why we're moral beings, and how to logically extend our morality. Why aren't those kinds of questions present in the test?

Well Plato constructs a fairly elaborate model to show why we're moral beings, as does Aristotle, Hobbes, and Sartre (the stuff on the inescapability of responsibility).

I wasn't under the impression that this test was about pure thought and the nature of things so much as it was about the way you think about the nature of ethics. Is it to ameliorate the human condition; or to serve God; or neither? Is always it concerned with ends over means or not? Does it rely on sentiment or is it a matter of pure reason?

I think these are the broadest questions.

	27-04-2003 00:37									#60
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Hey el freako, I'd like to know how you got Plato and Aristotle so far apart.

And Mill is the classic welfare statist liberal.