27-04-2003 05:43									#91
	Remove this text

Kudos to Agathon for the test

I have heard of all of them, except for Ockham and Spinoza.

Can you tell me more about Ockham?

What is Prescriptivism? That seems to rank fairly high.

1. St. Augustine (100%)
2. Aquinas (84%)
3. Ockham (78%)
4. Kant (69%)
5. Spinoza (69%)
6. Plato (64%)
7. Prescriptivism (64%)
8. John Stuart Mill (48%)
9. Aristotle (41%)
10. Ayn Rand (41%)
11. Jean-Paul Sartre (41%)
12. David Hume (37%)
13. Jeremy Bentham (36%)
14. Nel Noddings (34%)
15. Nietzsche (32%)
16. Stoics (25%)
17. Cynics (24%)
18. Epicureans (12%)
19. Thomas Hobbes (12%)


Hobbes is my last?

Seems I am quite close to Rogan Josh.

	27-04-2003 06:00									#92
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, like some folks above, never read anything by / about Sartre, but everyone else on top of the list is about right. Not many surprises there.

1. Jean-Paul Sartre
2. Nietzsche
3. David Hume
4. Spinoza
5. Thomas Hobbes

	27-04-2003 06:20									#93
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

1. Kant
2. John Stuart Mill
3. Prescriptivism
4. Ayn Rand

	27-04-2003 06:33									#94
	Support Apolyton

1. Kant- 100%
2. Spinoza- 100%
3. Aquinas- 94%
4. Stoics- 88%

And then a relatively large drop-off.

Go Kant and/or Spinoza!

	27-04-2003 07:33									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Agathon - For someone who constantly trumpets their superior critical thinking, you sure do have problems figuring out the obvious. I was poking fun at yet another of your claims of brilliance...Doh!

What claim????

You seem to think you know more about me than I do... well, what can I say.

Anyway it looks like this test has been highly revealing. Who would have thought that so many rightists would be exposed as welfare liberals. And who would have thought so many people were existentialists.

	27-04-2003 07:35									#96
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Where's Ming, MtG, Rah and the rest. Surely they owe us a look at the colours they fly.

	27-04-2003 07:37									#97
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hey Aggie:

Aren't you going to answer my questions?

	27-04-2003 08:01									#98
	Got spare money?

Had one of the religious guys the last time, this time Ayn Rand. I still don't put much credence in these tests though...

	27-04-2003 08:04									#99
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Kudos to Agathon for the test I have heard of all of them, except for Ockham and Spinoza. Can you tell me more about Ockham? What is Prescriptivism? That seems to rank fairly high.

Sorry. I didn't even notice that MtG had taken the test when I'd accused the mods of running scared (been playing civ all day). Interested to see what Ming comes up with though.

Ockham was one of the great mediaeval philosophers. I don't really know anything about him as late medieval philosophy is something I've never studied (a shameful hole in my knowledge, actually). I have a friend who is writing a thesis on him though.

Here's some stuff on him

http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/o/ockham.htm

Spinoza is probably the greatest Jewish philosopher of all time. I don't know a great deal about him due to the prejudices of English speaking philosphy departments. He's a rationalist (believes that the fundamental truths of the universe can be learned by reason independently of experience) and a monist (believes that there is only one kind of substance). He's a well regarded thinker, but well out of my areas of interest.

http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/s/spinoza.htm

Prescriptivism I do know a fair bit about. It is the theory of Richard M Hare, who died not long ago. The main idea is that ethical statements don't describe anything but are correctly understood as prescriptions. So for example the statement "Abortion is wrong" doesn't attribute the property of being wrong to abortion, but is correcty analysed as "We ought not to permit abortion" which prescribes rather than describing.

Someone who disagreed with Hare would say that ought-statements are only correct because a certain is-statement is correct. Hare has it round the other way. One reason for being a prescriptivist is that you don't have to account for moral properties in the world (which would be weird things and not detectable by science).

Hare goes on to say that moral words like ought have a special feature - they are universalisable (this is based on what moral words mean - that's what makes them universalisable).

So if I say "you ought not to kill" I am committed to universalizing the proposition so that it is wrong for anyone, including myself, to kill. It's easy to see that this entails the Golden Rule. In Hare's view this is a function of the meaning of moral words - the notion of the Golden rule is built into our moral vocabulary. So for example if someone said it was morally permissible for him to kill but no one else, Hare would say that he didn't understand the meaning of the term "morally permissible".

It's a pretty respectable view among professional philosophers. Far more respectable than Platonism.

	27-04-2003 08:07									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Had one of the religious guys the last time, this time Ayn Rand. I still don't put much credence in these tests though...

This is a good one Shi. The result doesn't mean that you agree with them about everything, just that you agree with them about the nature of morality. That's why so many people who don't believe in God are getting Aquinas - it isn't that they believe in God; rather they agree with him one some issues about the nature of moral reasoning.

For example Aristotle and Rand agree that morality is based upon human nature rather than agreement or God - but they'd hate each other's guts if they ever met because they believe that different things follow from the belief.

	27-04-2003 08:39									#101
	Put an end to popups!

Interesting.

I could see why Prescriptivism would score fairly high for me.

quote: prescriptivist is that you don't have to account for moral properties in the world (which would be weird things and not detectable by science).

Seems fairly straightforward to me. Science cannot tell you whether something is 'right' or 'wrong.'

What's the background of Richard Hare?

Much thanks for the links.

	27-04-2003 08:45									#102
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

This is his obituary from last year. I think it does him an injustice, there are still many prescriptivists.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/ar...,643093,00.html

I was very sad when I heard that he'd died as I enjoyed reading his work.

	27-04-2003 08:53									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Hare himself did work in the latter field, especially in bio-ethics,

Of great concern to myself at this point.

BTW

Ockham

"A Christian is not bound to believe, as necessary to salvation, anything which is neither contained in the Bible nor may be plainly and of necessity inferred from what is contained there." It is true that he does not realize how far this principle might lead, or how far it was one day going to lead Luther.

Very interesting coming from a Catholic.

Thanks again.

	27-04-2003 18:34									#104
	Increase Your PM Length

1. Bentham
2. Sartre
3. Spinoza
4. Hobbes
5. Aristotle

	27-04-2003 23:03									#105
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Agathon -

quote: What claim????

Geez, how many times have you announced your expertise in critical thinking, logic, teaching, blah blah blah, when your arguments were challenged? And you started this thread off with, "In fact as someone who does professional philosophy I think it is one of the better tests I've seen online". I have yet to see you in a debate where you didn't start touting your alleged credentials as a superior thinker.

quote: You seem to think you know more about me than I do... well, what can I say.

How about sticking with facts instead of what I seem to think?

quote: Anyway it looks like this test has been highly revealing. Who would have thought that so many rightists would be exposed as welfare liberals.

Sounds like an indictment of the test makers, not the test takers. When I took it, I got 100% for Rand and 94% for Mill, and yet, some here claim Mill was a socialist. Maybe you can explain how a socialist would be so close to Rand. And while you're at it, explain which question on the test revealed a desire for the welfare state. Let's see some of that critical thinking in action for a change.

	27-04-2003 23:11									#106
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Me 01. Thomas Hobbes (100%) 19. St. Augustine (20%)

quote: Obiwan 01. St. Augustine (100%) 19. Thomas Hobbes (12%)

Hello there

	27-04-2003 23:22									#107
	Got spare money?

Kant
Satre
Aristotele

Very Correct.

	28-04-2003 01:06									#108
	Got spare money?

1. Jean-Paul Sartre (100%)

2. Jeremy Bentham (73%)

3. Kant (69%)

.. Doesn't surprise me. I did notice, however, that quite a few who posted their results had several score philosophies over 75%. I only had one. Also the next in line was the Perscriptionists, down at about 58%.

Funny how no eastern philosophers made the cut.

Last edited by Uncle Sparky on 28-04-2003 at 01:19

	28-04-2003 01:19									#109
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1. Jeremy Bentham (100%)
2. Jean-Paul Sartre (98%)
3. Plato (96%)
4. Thomas Hobbes (94%)
5. Ayn Rand (87%)
6. Aquinas (82%)
7. John Stuart Mill (80%)
8. St. Augustine (79%)
9. Aristotle (73%)
10. Nietzsche (73%)
11. Cynics (62%)
12. Epicureans (62%)
13. Kant (60%)
14. Prescriptivism (58%)
15. David Hume (53%)
16. Spinoza (52%)
17. Nel Noddings (47%)
18. Stoics (33%)
19. Ockham (7%)

I've never been much into reading philosophy so can some1 give me a quick jist of what i am ?
I'm sure most of the people getting roughly equal scores have almost opposite ideas ....

Last edited by Lazerus on 28-04-2003 at 01:24

	28-04-2003 01:20									#110
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1. Epicureans
2. John Stuart Mill
3. Thomas Hobbes
4. Jeremy Bentham
5. Ayn Rand
6. Nietzsche
7. Jean-Paul Sartre
8. Aquinas
9. Aristotle
10. Cynics

Pretty much what I expected... I never thought that Nietzsche would be so high on hte list though...

	28-04-2003 03:17									#111
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

1. Spinoza
2. Bentham
3. Epicureans
4. Aristotle
5. Aquinas

After looking at the little blurbs on the philosophers, I concluded that it misinterpreted my belief that living morally will in the long run make you happy as beign that what is moral is in general what makes you happy.

	28-04-2003 03:38									#112
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Agathon - Geez, how many times have you announced your expertise in critical thinking, logic, teaching, blah blah blah, when your arguments were challenged? And you started this thread off with, "In fact as someone who does professional philosophy I think it is one of the better tests I've seen online". I have yet to see you in a debate where you didn't start touting your alleged credentials as a superior thinker.

Obviously, you haven't been reading much. I put that in at the beginning because it's my professional opinion regarding the subject of my job. I'd also like to see what a professional psych teacher would say about Red Jon's tests. If there was some quiz or statement made that some Apolytoner was reasonably expert about, I'd want to hear their views.

Trying to turn this into anything else is just silly.

quote: Sounds like an indictment of the test makers, not the test takers. When I took it, I got 100% for Rand and 94% for Mill, and yet, some here claim Mill was a socialist. Maybe you can explain how a socialist would be so close to Rand. And while you're at it, explain which question on the test revealed a desire for the welfare state. Let's see some of that critical thinking in action for a change.

I already explained this. What the test does is test your metaethical views, rather than your normative views.

Metaethical views = your view about the nature and structure of morality (i.e. do you believe it's about human well being, natural rights or God's will, etc. etc.)

Normative views = your moral judgements about substantive moral issues, like whether you think welfare payments are right or wrong.

There is no ironclad logical connection between the latter and the former. In other words it is possible to agree with someone like Rand about what form moral arguments and justifications have to take without agreeing with the positions she takes on things. In the example I gave above both Rand and Aristotle believe that human nature is essentially rational and that ethics has primarily to do with the flourishing of human beings. However, while they share this conception they draw different conclusions on it based on their other beliefs.

Given that people on this forum are often surprised when they find themselves agreeing on points with their usual enemies, I think this was a test worth taking. For example, Obiwan18 expresses surprise that he occasionally agrees with me. The test shows that he shouldn't be surprised since our metaethical views overlap to a considerable degree, even though I'm not a theist. Similarly, many people had Aquinas high on their list without believing in God. This is because they share a lot of beliefs about morality with him, even though not all.

	28-04-2003 03:40									#113
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Lazerus 1. Jeremy Bentham (100%) 2. Jean-Paul Sartre (98%) 3. Plato (96%) 4. Thomas Hobbes (94%) 5. Ayn Rand (87%) I've never been much into reading philosophy so can some1 give me a quick jist of what i am ? I'm sure most of the people getting roughly equal scores have almost opposite ideas ....

That's such a weird concatenation of opposed views that I can't see how to reconcile them. I suppose that Bentham, Plato and Hobbes all favour authoritarianism in some form. But Rand and Sartre are rugged individualists.

Strange....

	28-04-2003 03:50									#114
	Remove this text

Oh lordy, look at all the Satre-phils. Apolyton's going existenselist on us. Gonna have people running around with the nausea of freedom soon....

*gets out the "Life is Meaningless but that's OK cause You are Your own Moral Agent" sickbags.*

	28-04-2003 03:57									#115
	Tired of ads?

1. Aquinas (100%)
2. John Stuart Mill (94%)
3. Kant (92%)
4. Aristotle (91%)
5. Nietzsche (85%)
6. Jean-Paul Sartre (84%)

weird combination

	28-04-2003 03:59									#116
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Starchild Oh lordy, look at all the Satre-phils. Apolyton's going existenselist on us. Gonna have people running around with the nausea of freedom soon....

Yeah, vomiting on trees that they can't identify as trees...

I must admit the Sartre thing surprised me. I expected most people to agree with Mill, Hobbes and Rand (the last only because she has so many disciples here).

	28-04-2003 04:00									#117
	Increase Your PM Length

do people generally consider Nietzsche to be an existentialist? most of his ideas do seem to be a militant, right-wing version of existentialism

	28-04-2003 04:17									#118
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

1. Kant (100%) (read about him a bit in school)
2. John Stuart Mill (85%) (read about him on the net)
3. Jeremy Bentham (80%) (who?)
4. Spinoza (76%) (heard alot about him but haven't read him)
5. Stoics (75%) (i remember hearing their name in school)
6. Epicureans (69%) (same as stoics)
7. Jean-Paul Sartre (69%) (his name is familiar. that's it)
8. Prescriptivism (65%) (huh?)
9. David Hume (55%) (read about him in school)
10. Nietzsche (55%) (read him )
11. Ayn Rand (51%) (who?)
12. Aristotle (49%) (read little about his actual thoughts)
13. Aquinas (44%) (seems familiar. don't remember)
14. Nel Noddings (42%) (who?)
15. Thomas Hobbes (42%) (read a bit about him in school)
16. Cynics (29%) (remember little about them from school)
17. St. Augustine (27%) (know his name. that's it)
18. Plato (20%) (remember very little about him)
19. Ockham (17%) (who?)

	28-04-2003 07:36									#119
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Funny how no eastern philosophers made the cut.

There doesn't seem to be any on the list.

	28-04-2003 07:37									#120
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer do people generally consider Nietzsche to be an existentialist? most of his ideas do seem to be a militant, right-wing version of existentialism