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Dominae
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Welcome to the first MoI status report! A lot of people (Consuls included!) have been commenting that they feel "out of touch" with what is going on with our economy. Most of this, I believe, has to do with the MoI topped thread, which is not very readable to the casual observer. I'm going to leave this thread as is, since its detail is necessary for myself and the Consuls. However, in order to make economic matters more accessible, Status Report threads (such as this one) will be created periodically, describing what's going on economically in a more user-friendly format. The ultimate goal is to get Citizens more involved in economic matters, and therefore these threads are open for discussion (so discuss!).
1. What we've done so far
Yup, we have a pretty average starting location. Unless you've been hiding under a rock, you'll have noticed that we've got a huge economic obstacle in the form of Jungle, Jungle and more Jungle. We must therefore put all our efforts into terraforming the lands to the South. The reason I'm not speaking of the Northern lands is that they're mostly Mountains and Desert, which (no matter how hard we try) will not be useful to us anytime soon. On the other hand, Jungle, once cleared, becomes very useful Grassland (and the odd tile might be a Bonus Grassland...sooo very precious!).
So, to help clear all this Jungle, we need a bunch of Workers, which means we need lots of Food. Apart from our Game tile, Food is pretty scarce in the lands of Apolyton. And this is why we need to make the best of use of our Food as possible. The key to this is a little improvement called the Granary. We've built on in Apolyton, and it has helped us pump out Settlers at an nice rate.
Currently, we've founded two cities (apart from our capital), Mingapulco and Bananatopia. These cities were placed in order to be able to benefit from the Game tile when Apolyton is not using it. It is my belief that city placement should be governed by the maxim: "best use of available land".
We've also produced two Workers (or will have, in the next turn), since we're a bit behind in tile improvements, which has forced us to work unimproved tiles for the time being.
Of course, the rest of the time we've been busy building military units. We've had to spend a little more time getting our number of Warriors to an acceptable level (enough for scouting and defense), since we've lost Warriors to the RNG. We've also completed the pride of our Ministry of War, a beautiful 2/3/1 Numidian Mercenary. More are to come. Since our unit has such good stats, and since we can use Barbs to get promotions, we've decided not to build a Barracks to pump up our super-Spearmen (although we'll need one eventually).
2. What we're planning for the near-future
Apolyton will complete yet another Settler in a few turns, and our fourth city will be founded on the Incense to the North. This makes our city-spacing pretty tight, I admit, but we need to make good use of the Grasslands we have available. In any case, once we get a Harbor in those coastal cities, there should be plenty of room for our laborers. After the Settler, Apolyton will be producing Settlers/Workers periodically, with a military unit thrown in every so often just to let the city recover from the pop drops.
Mingapulco will be finishing our second Numidian Mercenary in under 4 turns, and will then begin another one immediately. After that it is not certain what we will do with this city, but I'm thinking something along the lines of Workers to keep its pop down, and military units the rest of the time (perhaps a Barracks, so that we can uprgrade our Warriors in the event of war).
Bananatopia just finished a Warrior so that it would have time to grow to size 2 by the time a Worker is complete there (about 3 turns from now). Production will then be set to a Granary. In this way, Apolyton and Bananatopia will be able to share the Game tile to efficiently go about producing a veritable army of Workers for our war against the Jungle.
3. Long-term ideas
Our main goal will be to produce as many Workers as possible, so that they may clear Jungle and thereby create some reasonable city-sites. The rest of our efforts will go toward keeping our military up to Ministry of War's standards. Clearly, the idea is to put economy first and military second, but in the event of a threat from some other civ, the MoI will not hesitate to switch this order (in order to prioritize military strength).
Research is best left to the diplomats, although it would be nice to get Map Making as soon as possible (for Harbors and Galleys). Anything else is too far to plan (I cannot even conceive of building Marketplaces at this stage!).
There are currently no plans for any Culture focus, although it is not wise to neglect this area completely. Perhaps Apolyton could squeak in a Temple when it's trying to get its size up again (between Settlers/Workers).
As mentioned, much longer term is difficult to plan. We've got a big job with the Jungle-clearing; once we get that done this will look more and more like a "normal" game of Civ. It is my firm belief that our best chance at success right now is to remain peaceful and build up our economic power. Our starting spot has forced us to start slow, but can definitely make up for that with our inherent strengths (Industrious/Commercial).
Let's not give up on this game too quickly, just because we did not get the Cattle/River start. It is not the Ministry of the Interior's plan to back down from this challenge. Apolyton yet has a chance to prevail!
Thanks for reading. Comments are welcome (and expected!).
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 28-04-2003 at 19:11
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:27
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Nice Post Dom! 
I don't know if it's in the 'plans', but I'd like a 3rd NM so that one could hunt North and one could hunt South. The South NM would be doing double duty, making appearances for CDG's sake!  When one of the two NM makes 'Elite' status, he then switches with the one left at home.
I'd also like a granery in Banatopia; we're going to need truckloads of workers to get our land issues managable. With the addition of CFC on our land mass, war with a CDG/GCA Alliance isn't as likely. The issue of peacefully settling the area is foremost on our list now. Perhaps a chop on the forest tile near Banatopia could help build this granery.
City Plans
I like the placement of the 4th City. I was thinking of two similar plans for the placement of Cities 5, 6, and 7. City 5 cuts off North passage and give us a Western Sea Port. Irrigation should be brought up through Mingapulco as our worker's clear the jungle down there. Till then, a harbor will do fine, which could be sped along by the two forest tiles surrounding it. City 5 will also be able to work 2 grassland tiles near Apolyton.
Plan #1
The first plan cuts off any passage to our East and locks up more of the dyes with City 6; it also creates a Southern Sea Port. With City 7 being placed on dyes it will produce a lot of commerce off the bat. There's also many river tiles that both Cities 6 & 7 will be able the "share"; this is true of City 7 and Banatopia as well. It allows for a lucrative sharing arrangement between the three cities that all have access to the same river.
plan1forcitiescopy.JPG)
Plan #2
The second one puts cities 6 & 7 on river's to allow for future growth (without need of an aqueduct) and allows for a greater amount of commerce to come from their center tiles (since it's on a river). I like the first plan just a little better since it gives the Southern Sea Port; Otherwise they are pretty equal, IMO. Another good point about the second plan is that both Cities 6 & 7 are only 5 tiles from the Capitol; whereas in the first plan City 6 is also 5 tiles away, but City 7 is 6 tiles away causing a little more corruption, but not much.
plan2forcitiescopy.JPG)
EDIT: A side note: Why haven't we checked the two blackened tiles near where City 5 is being proposed? Couldn't there have been a Hut in either of those?
Last edited by BigFree on 28-04-2003 at 15:45
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Dominae
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Woo-hoo, discussion!
jim_steer: we're not planning for any Wonders right now because, frankly, I'm not sure which city has a chance of producing one in a reasonable time frame. Apolyton and Bananatopia look like our best bets, but they will be busy will Settlers and Workers for quite some time.
BigFree: a third NM is in the works. Concerning city placement, after a bit of thought, I like your first plan, but with the 7th city placed 99 (two tiles NE of its marked location); this helps bring water for irrigation up North that much faster.
One thing I forgot to mention in the original post is plans for Workers. In general, we'll be improving all the Grasslands before proceeding on to anything else (even the Forest chop). After that we'll proceed to clearing some Jungle to allow for some (mildly) useful cities down there. Concurrently we'll work toward bringing fresh water up through Mingapulco. If Iron appears distant from our core (in the bumpy area beyond the desert), we might begin Roads in the direction, but we will not connect up the resource until we know we want to upgrade our Warriors.
Dominae
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Dominae
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MrWhereItsAt: thanks!
Trip: until we see where the Iron actually is, I would rather not make any definite statement on that. It might be that a Colony would be best for grabbing the Iron. Or, if we can get the Iron within the borders if a location we actually want to settle, we'll plant a city instead. Either way, I can see us needing some defense up there (if the Iron does end up beyond the desert).
Dominae
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Dominae
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Prepared how, but building an army right now? I see what you're getting at, but if the only sources of Iron are within CDG's sphere of influence, we may just have to "make do" with our NMs (which are still not too shabby).
Dominae
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Dominae
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Trip: I honestly believe that's a diplomatic situation. If FAM tells the MoI that's is a REX race, then a beeline for that site with a Settler may be the best option. Is this what you're getting at (I'm sort of confused as to why you're asking this specific question)?
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 28-04-2003 at 19:50
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by joncnunn
Plan 2, but reorder the founding of them to:
1. City 5
2. City 7
3. City 6
4. City 4 (this city benifits us the least) |
Yes, city 5 is looking more and more attractive the more people talk about it.
City 4 will be quite useful to us. With access to 2 improved Grasslands, it will be doing a whole lot more economically than any Jungle city in the time before our Workers get around to clearing all that rainforest.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
And I was referring to the case where no borders were drawn, no deals made for the iron, and it was the one source for both CDG and us. |
In that situation, I'm assuming the MoI would be working with the MoW and FAM on the issue, but would not be calling the shots.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by Trip
Yes, but what is your opinion of what you think we should do?  |
I'm sorry, Trip, I honestly thought you were only asking my opinion as Minister of the Interior. I think that if it comes to a race for Iron between us and CDG, it will most certainly end up in war. I doubt they'll let us out-REX them to the one resource that makes them potent. On this issue, as on most others in this game, I do not think war is the best answer for us. With access to NMs, we're priviledged as being one of the two civs that can actually survive without Iron (the other one being the Greeks). Of course, we could not be the aggressor until Cavalry, but NMs, Musketmen and Longbowmen provide a decent defense. Even so, we should do our best to secure a source of Iron. I just think that, if it means a conflict with CDG, we should not go down that road.
Dominae
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
I'm sorry, Trip, I honestly thought you were only asking my opinion as Minister of the Interior. I think that if it comes to a race for Iron between us and CDG, it will most certainly end up in war. I doubt they'll let us out-REX them to the one resource that makes them potent. On this issue, as on most others in this game, I do not think war is the best answer for us. With access to NMs, we're priviledged as being one of the two civs that can actually survive without Iron (the other one being the Greeks). Of course, we could not be the aggressor until Cavalry, but NMs, Musketmen and Longbowmen provide a decent defense. Even so, we should do our best to secure a source of Iron. I just think that, if it means a conflict with CDG, we should not go down that road. |
Okay, thanks, that's what I was asking. 
If CDG does out-REX us and does get iron, how do you propose we deal with CDG? We'll obviously have to take a very defensive stance, and without good offensive forces (Swordsmen), we'll either need to make sure we have overwhelming force or the ability to produce it. If we only have a few NMs, then they could easily stockpile a few Warriors, upgrade, and overwhelm us if we're not careful.
Another thing is that the game could be close to over by the time we have access to Cavalry. I think we definitely need to have plans to acquire iron sometime before then. Medieval Infantry and Knights are simply too important at the time they arrive for us to simply ignore them.
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Dominae
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If we do not get access to Iron and CDG does, we'll have to put a lot more focus on military (specifically, Mercs), that's for sure. But if things go well until the Medieval age, we can then prioritize Engineering-Invention-Gunpowder, which gives us all the tools we need to mount a defense (Medieval Infantry are not that great of an addition if you're not upgrading to them, in comparison to Longbowmen...I'm not a fan of that extra defense point).
But I think it's a mistake to say that Knights are central to our success. I believe we can do very well without ever building or upgrading to a Knight. In fact, I would go so far as to say that, if we play things right, we could end up in a situation where we would not need Knights, even if we did have access to Iron. Because the tech pace can be so fast in MP, it does not take long before Gunpowder appears (and I'm betting we've got some of that near our core). To mount an effective offense with Knights, you need to plan way in advance (by building up a bunch of Horsemen). But with all this Jungle around us, I doubt we'll have that luxury.
Dominae
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:27
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Do you still support the idea of an early Barracks in Mingapulco? If we find iron (2 turns), then we can start Mingapulco stockpiling vet Warriors for upgrade (we'll have to work out some sort of tech deal to be able to build up some cash for upgrading though). If not, then it will probably be best to form a large veteran cadre of NMs. As long as we keep our city pack tight, and our Warrior screen in place, we'll have enough advanced warning to twart any potential CDG advance. Also, it will be very hard for them to build up enough cash to mount an effective Immortal rush, so we should be able to spot it coming ("oh, we're not going to have that tech for... 40 turns...).
However, we must always be prepared...
You may be right about Knights and Med Inf, but if we do have horses (we'll find out in 2 turns just like iron  ), they could be quite useful if we hack enough jungle away some day. IMO, the flexibility of such mobile units cannot be ignored, even with so much jungle. 
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:27
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I have been toying with the situation vis-a-vis CDG and iron.
If there is only one source near by, I say we should jump on it with a settler and a couple of mercs. Why? It secures our position and severely hampers CDG's ability to do anything to us. While we may well be close to out-rexing them, all will be for naught if they get iron, we don't, and they come on with a pile of warrior-immortal upgrades (you'll have to trust me on how painful that can be ).
While on the topic of warfare... I have been considering what the best course of action for us should be once we plant our most productive city sites. Should we plow into the jungle and clear it? Or, should we turn our attention to other pursuits for growth?
I am beginning to think that the best course of action for us may well be to pop barracks in Poly, Ming, and cities 4 and 5, then churn out the mercs and a few horse (should we be so blessed). 10 mercs advancing on your capital and you are clearing jungle, what would you do, especially if you had no iron? Just a thought.
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Trip
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Hunt Valley
Apr 2002
time: 00:27
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The problem in attacking CDG is that it doesn't gain us much. I definitely agree that we need to jump on iron as soon as we see it (even if we have our own secure source). Right now, we have very little to gain from attacking or taking out CDG, but very much to risk by leaving them with iron. If we prevent them from getting iron to begin with using one of our cities, then stack a couple NMs on the spot, we can effectively control them for as long as we need to. Attacking them now would only weaken them (or if we want to invest that much, destroy them outright), but all that would do is strengthen GCA. Long-term, if CDG is wiped out, the major powers on this continent will be Apolyton and GCA. I'd rather they be weaker than stronger, since taking CDG's land won't merit us much at all as far as land and power goes, but will take a lot of pressure off GCA's border. Letting CDG live after a war invites them to buildup again to strike us back. I'd rather not have to deal with that kind of situation.
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dejon
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quote:
Originally posted by Panzer32
2. I don't think this thread should be topped, for 2 reasons:
a) It is a current thread that will be out of date in a while. While it is relevant, it will have the number of posts to stay at the top if it is de-topped.
b) There are already too many topped threads. Reduce clutter!!  |
I agree. Also, why can't the ministries have one topped thread each, with links to their important threads? Their important and active threads will naturally remain near the top regardless, and less important ones can filter down.
As it stands now, FA has 4 topped threads (  ), MoI has 2, and AI has 2. Only the MoW has 1 (good job, Trip!).
By the way, the AI seems to have stalled... 
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Apolyton Time is 00:27. |
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28-04-2003 01:32
, its sand , between the coastal and the hill , .....
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