29-04-2003 07:21									#31
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If we make a move to deny the only Iron source, you can bet we're in for an early war. I think I've made a pretty good case that Iron might not be that essential to us. If we're willing to back down (loudly, of course!), it could actually be better for us in the long run.


Dominae

	29-04-2003 07:24									#32
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree If we can take their Iron source away, I'm all for it. Plopping a city on top of it would be ideal. I would not suggest using the opportunity to deliver a death blow to CDG quite yet. It would be GCA who benefited from such a move more so than we would. GCA would have access to already improved and thus giving them a chance to severely out-REX us. In the future CDG and GCA wil come to blows, no doubt, we should plan for this and help this along if we can while we continue to REX.

If they have iron, then there's little we can do without committing fully. And then we have the problem of either finishing CDG off, or having them as a thorn in our side until we do so. I'd prefer we just take them out much later when it won't help GCA as much.

quote: We could even make promises to GCA to help them in a joint attack against CDG, though we wouldn't commit much more that a few units to do so; they wouldn't have to know this, however! We'd be playing the two off of one another.

This may or may not be a good idea. GCA may have a bunch of land to expand into to the south, and if they see CDG as weak and not a threat, they could just let CDG come after us to help weaken us instead. As I've said all along, we need to make sure that the other teams know as little about our stance with other teams as possible. Once something happens, we can react to it, or once we've commited to attacking someone, we could inform another team a few turns in advance to see if they could help us, but I really don't like the idea of planning invasions with other teams a long time in advance.

	29-04-2003 07:28									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae If we make a move to deny the only Iron source, you can bet we're in for an early war. I think I've made a pretty good case that Iron might not be that essential to us. If we're willing to back down (loudly, of course!), it could actually be better for us in the long run.

But they will be Immortal-less.

That takes half their offensive potential away. Archers VS vet-fortified-walled NMs won't be pretty. Without Immortals, their ability to do damage to us is next to nothing. If they did attack, they would be gravely weakened, and we could take care of them at the time of our choosing.

	29-04-2003 07:31									#34
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quote: Originally posted by dejon Also, why can't the ministries have one topped thread each, with links to their important threads? Their important and active threads will naturally remain near the top regardless, and less important ones can filter down.

This is how the MoI is currently organized (have you been to the MoI thread recently?). It was a Consul's decision to top this particular thread, which I thought was reasonable since so many people were asking for something of this sort. But you're right that discussion should keep this baby "high" as long as it is needed. I'm fine with having it topped or not-topped.


Dominae

	29-04-2003 07:33									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Trip But they will be Immortal-less.

So, if we can deny CDG Iron, we do it unconditionally, since the opportunity would be too great to pass up? Or do we just do this if there's only one Iron to split between us?

I'm not thinking about it too hard, because I'm convinced we'll have Iron of our own to the North. Call me lazy.


Dominae

	29-04-2003 07:51									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae This is how the MoI is currently organized (have you been to the MoI thread recently?). It was a Consul's decision to top this particular thread, which I thought was reasonable since so many people were asking for something of this sort. But you're right that discussion should keep this baby "high" as long as it is needed. I'm fine with having it topped or not-topped. Dominae

I have had no issues with the MoI thread, Dominae. In fact, I appreciate your organizational skills.

I was actually taking a pot-shot at the MFA, but felt that I shouldn't exclude the other ministries.

	29-04-2003 08:04									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae So, if we can deny CDG Iron, we do it unconditionally, since the opportunity would be too great to pass up? Or do we just do this if there's only one Iron to split between us? I'm not thinking about it too hard, because I'm convinced we'll have Iron of our own to the North. Call me lazy.

If it's possible to deny them iron without having to engage in offensive operations, I would lean towards that option. Having to uproot CDG Spearmen and possibly Immortals to take out their iron is a lot more of an investment of time, planning and resources than building a city on top of the damn thing, rushing walls and sticking two NMs inside. At that point, we will know all they have to throw at us will be Archers. It would take upwards of 10+ Archers to dig out those NMs, and if they did attack us, they would be so crippled long-term by their lack of iron they wouldn't even have a chance to defeat us. We could then decide how to deal with them... either vassalization, or destruction, whichever yields the greatest benefit.

	29-04-2003 08:45									#38
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What if GCA takes full advantage of their early blessing to take out CDG themselves? Then we face the prospects of a very large neighbour just south of the jungle.

Would it not be better to grab our piece of CDG? Once GCA begins to move, it will be too late to grab a chunk. If we want more space, which is reasonable with a 13 tile gap between capitals, we need to move first.

I do prefer to build, myself. However, I am looking at 5 useful city sites and then much hard work. I really do not want to be in full clearance mode with a few regular mercs when 10 vet immortals are spotted approaching.

	29-04-2003 08:51									#39
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What if GCA takes full advantage of their early blessing to take out CDG themselves? Then we face the prospects of a very large neighbour just south of the jungle. Would it not be better to grab our piece of CDG? Once GCA begins to move, it will be too late to grab a chunk. If we want more space, which is reasonable with a 13 tile gap between capitals, we need to move first. I do prefer to build, myself. However, I am looking at 5 useful city sites and then much hard work. I really do not want to be in full clearance mode with a few regular mercs when 10 vet immortals are spotted approaching.

Their land is only useful to us once we clear jungle. Anything further south of the jungle would be too corrupt for us to use, and may not have access to irrigation for quite some time. I'm of the opinion that we have better places to build cities for the next 60 turns.

	29-04-2003 09:13									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Their land is only useful to us once we clear jungle. Anything further south of the jungle would be too corrupt for us to use, and may not have access to irrigation for quite some time. I'm of the opinion that we have better places to build cities for the next 60 turns.

Hmmm. What's that river flowing SE towards Elucidia? Have a look at their growth, they have irrigation and bonuses, or they beat us to a granery. They grew pop in 5 turns between 2900 and 2710.

What would we gain by taking out CDG? A lot. Instead of 13 tiles capital to capital, we would be 20 plus to GCA's. We would gain time and space to clear the jungle peacefully. We would gain the absence of a team who have been anything but cooperative and friendly. We would gain the security that instead of their immortals coming for us in REX mode, it would be our mercs going for them. If they are not in REX mode, well then, we would have the army to combat them.

Finally, the way they placed their 2nd and 3rd cities cries out for us to take advantage of the situation our small patch of good, productive land gives us before we fall behind other civs too far. That is the reality I am looking at. We can build 5 small cities. Ideal barracks/ancient unit pumps. After that... we face a large and vulnerable task of building workers and workers and more workers.

I am seriously leaning towards going for early warfare to gain us the space and time that clearing jungle requires.

	29-04-2003 09:20									#41
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Warfare will only make sense if we get some Iron. NMs are great for pillaging and intereference and all that, but when it comes time to start conquering some cities, they're nothing more than Archers.


Dominae

	29-04-2003 09:24									#42
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Mercs make very capable units for ancient conquest. Especially if they are against a civ without iron or horses.

Do you want to counter attack that stack?

	29-04-2003 09:30									#43
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Do we want to use that stack?

Those are expensive Archers...

	29-04-2003 09:32									#44
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Sure. Especially if they can have a few horse with them. Especially since they require no spears sprinkled amongst them and are not something anyone without swords is going to have much success against.

	29-04-2003 09:33									#45
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We would have to be guaranteed that CDG did not survive and we had control of their current Capitol, in order for me to support this right now.

	29-04-2003 09:38									#46
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With their 2nd and 3rd city sites, their capital is all they got.

Either they are cursed worse than us, or they have made very big mistakes. I am thinking we should not allow such an unfriendly team to survive either eventuality.

	29-04-2003 09:59									#47
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Well, lets get a poll on this issue. We'd need to build two Barracks fairly quick. Do we go with Archer's or pray we have Iron within reasonable reach? Horsemen would also be pretty good for atacking their Capitol as they'd likely have some clear terrain to manuever on.

	29-04-2003 10:08									#48
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A little early yet for a poll. I would like to see the horse/iron situation, which should come in 2 to 4 turns.

I wanted to put the idea out there at some time though, and somehow this thread presented the opportunity.

The plan would be to found cities 4 and 5 ASAP. Switch to military production in Poly, Ming, 4 and 5. Then be in position to prosecute an offensive about the time the next NAP expires. We would pump workers into the smaller cities from Poly and Bananatopia to get them going quicker.

I have yet to model it, I am waiting to see where the iron and horses are.

	29-04-2003 10:22									#49
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So how long would you propse our next NAP with CDG to be?

I'm prepared to submit a fairly dry letter to CDG regarding the removal of WBigFree. I think most are aware of my stance on the subject and how we shouldn't take any more crap from them. If you have any ideas on how you think this situation should be handled; please post themhere. Thanks.

	29-04-2003 18:28									#50
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I hate to break in with a typical MoI comment, but NMs are expensive. It's not like we can upgrade to those 30-Shield babies. With, say, 3 cities producing an average of 4-5 Shields per turn, our army is not going to get big very fast. Sprinkle in those Horsemen makes the situation look even worse. And, finally, add in the fact that Horsemen nor Archers are simply not that effective against human opponents (think point defense and Walls), and this war does not look at all good on paper.


Dominae