07-05-2003 14:51									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Nobody bears hard feelings and people thank the US forces for keeping the military balance in Central Europe for so long. But the Russians are gone over 10 years now and there's no need to protect us against them anymore. The bases located in Germany aren't here for defense purposes anymore, but serve as bases for different kinds of aggressive wars now. The acceptance in our population for this is very low.

I agree, it's time to go. I think that one reason that we have remained for so long is that our facilities in Germany represent a fairly large investment, which would have been difficult to recreate elsewhere in a short period of time. We seem to be phasing out most of the bases though. I was in Germany in 2000, and the base that I worked on 14 years earlier was no longer in there.

	07-05-2003 15:00									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander I agree, it's time to go. I think that one reason that we have remained for so long is that our facilities in Germany represent a fairly large investment, which would have been difficult to recreate elsewhere in a short period of time. We seem to be phasing out most of the bases though. I was in Germany in 2000, and the base that I worked on 14 years earlier was no longer in there.

Yes, a lot of the troops are already gone. There's only ~70,000 left. I personally have nothing against them, I barely notice them, although I live only 20 km away from a fairly large base. But it makes me sick to hear, that these bases are used as hubs in wars I don't accept, and that's the reason why I now want us to get rid of them. A lot of this feeling has accumulated in the past 3 years. I was rather pro American before.

	07-05-2003 15:13									#123
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I asked how old you were because your answer was something I expected from someone who was younger.

I now understand that you statement was colored by your dissatisfaction with how our bases have been used recently.

Removing that from the equation, and specifically in relation to how American and Russian forces treated the people of West and East Germany, how do they compare?

	07-05-2003 15:26									#124
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Removing that from the equation, and specifically in relation to how American and Russian forces treated the people of West and East Germany, how do they compare?

Aside from the events in 1953 (five years before I was born), where the "doctrines of the great Stalin" were still alive and well, the Russian forces treated the Eastern Germans about the same way as the Americans treated the Western Germans. They were barely noticeable and hid themselves in their barracks. It wasn't like shown in some bad Hollywood movies, that Russian officers were omnipresent. Every larger city had its Soviet Military Commandant, some had garrisons, and that was it.

As for the Eastern German government, it got of course its commands from Moscow, just like the Western German government got theirs from Washington D.C. After the wall fell and the first resentments between both sides of Germans were gone, some people (including me) begun to think, that the Eastern and Western Germans could have been friends long before, if it wasn't for both the Russians and the Americans, who used the time of the occupation to fight their dirty cold war on our territory.

	07-05-2003 17:40									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph As for the Eastern German government, it got of course its commands from Moscow, just like the Western German government got theirs from Washington D.C. After the wall fell and the first resentments between both sides of Germans were gone, some people (including me) begun to think, that the Eastern and Western Germans could have been friends long before, if it wasn't for both the Russians and the Americans, who used the time of the occupation to fight their dirty cold war on our territory.

Both Russians and Americans share the responsibility for Cold war. Millions of people suffered because of our Russo-American showdowns. Sure Yanks will never admit that they share this responsibility with us. They prefer to believe that they were liberators, while we were evil red ass motherf*ckers.

	07-05-2003 18:20									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Aside from the events in 1953 (five years before I was born), where the "doctrines of the great Stalin" were still alive and well, the Russian forces treated the Eastern Germans about the same way as the Americans treated the Western Germans.

My Great Aunt who ended up on the Eastern side after WWII would disagree with you. She was basically a prisoner in East Germany until she turned 65. Her brother (my grandfather) was fortunate to be on the Western side. My Great Aunt never forgave the Russians for putting up the wall and foricbly dividing the country and her family.

I'm curious what you think of the 10,000 East Germans who risked their lives to escape to the west.

quote: As for the Eastern German government, it got of course its commands from Moscow, just like the Western German government got theirs from Washington D.C.

What "orders" were given to the West German govt from Washington? Anything comparable to a secret police? false elections? imposition of communism? forced conscription? crackdown on emigration? what?

quote: After the wall fell and the first resentments between both sides of Germans were gone, some people (including me) begun to think, that the Eastern and Western Germans could have been friends long before, if it wasn't for both the Russians and the Americans, who used the time of the occupation to fight their dirty cold war on our territory.

There was never any reason for Germany to be divided at all. Remember who built the wall. It is unfortunate for you that Germany happened to be the border of the Russian and American alliances, but really now - how badly did West Germany really fare under the supposed American domination? I see a prosperous democratic country built on the ruins of an autocratic dictatorship. What do you see?

	07-05-2003 18:22									#127
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People risked their lives to excape East Germany. They got shot trying to escape that dictatorship. And there's no difference? Could I have some of that ganja you smokin'?

	07-05-2003 18:25									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Nobody bears hard feelings and people thank the US forces for keeping the military balance in Central Europe for so long. But the Russians are gone over 10 years now and there's no need to protect us against them anymore. The bases located in Germany aren't here for defense purposes anymore, but serve as bases for different kinds of aggressive wars now. The acceptance in our population for this is very low.

Gratitude seems pretty thin.

	07-05-2003 18:27									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Both Russians and Americans share the responsibility for Cold war. Millions of people suffered because of our Russo-American showdowns. Sure Yanks will never admit that they share this responsibility with us. They prefer to believe that they were liberators, while we were evil red ass motherf*ckers.

That's because you were. It was an evil dictatorship with a secret police. People risked their lives to escape that slave camp. People risk their lives to get into ours.

Face it. You are on the trashheap of history. We are ascendant. Good conquers evil.

	07-05-2003 18:28									#130
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Especially since the victor always defines "good"

	07-05-2003 18:32									#131
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Of course the winners write history - but don't take our word for it. Just look at East vs. West Germany. Which do you think was better? I know it's painful and not politically correct, but believe me when I tell ya that every now and then America does the right thing - shocking and unthinkable as that may be.

	07-05-2003 18:53									#132
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I know, and I was just reacting to the overconfidence of GP. Personally, I would listen to SirRalph on this one, since he is the most involved person in this. I don't think GP's behaviour of shouting "You're wrong !" from half-a-world away was justified.

The US have massively funded West Germany, and helped it become an efficient democracy (the Germans were the first authors of this democracy, this is not a Japan-like scenario). West Germany also didn't have to fund expensive colonial wars or the cold war during the reconstruction, and had a strong work discipline, which explains why it faired economically that well.

The USSR, in east Germany, hadn't it massively funded, and imposed a dictatorship under the Soviet authority. East Germany has put significant efforts in paying for the cold war, and its economy was partly planned from Moscow, which served itself on the COMECON countries. OTOH, the stasi was not led by the USSR, but was a very German organization which became a model for other secret polices in the East bloc.

I really think West Germany is better than East : free people, who don't have to fear coercion fro their political beliefs, and a better standard of living. West Germany hasn't suffered from East's fate because the US agreed in letting the West having as much autonomy as needed except in diplomatic and military matters. the US is to thank for not involving itself too much in West Germany.

It doesn't mean the US have done the "good" GP is gloating. The US has done well, and has had an efficient and better policy. Not an absolute "good" by any standard.

	07-05-2003 18:56									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Serb It's very funny claim, consider that it was USA who created Pinochet. Just visit a CIA site and read how those guys are proud that they overthrown Aliende and installed Pinochet instead of democratically elected president of Chile.

CIA site. Really? More likely KGB.

But anyway, give me a link.

	07-05-2003 19:05									#134
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Beginning to surface?
That's like announcing France considering not endorsing war with Iraq.

	07-05-2003 19:14									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Serb I'm afraid we have different views about foundation of UN and about role UN. 1) I don't think it was mainly the US and Britain who created UN. UN was created by Allies after victory in WW2,BY ALL allies including Soviet Union. 2) I don't think that "The UN is an American ideal", because Soviet Union played active role in creation of UN. 3) I don't think that somewhere in the UN design process, you lost your way when you did not insist on democratic goverments be a ground rule for continued membership. Because Soviet Union was one of the founding fathers of UN and it would never allowed this.

No doubt including the USSR in the foundation of the UN was its undoing. Most Americans fought WWII to defend "democracy." We viewed helping Stalin as a necessary evil to defeat Hitler. But, after the close of WWII, it was no longer necessary to continue to cooperate with Stalin. That we did was a betrayal, a treasonous betrayal, of the very purpose for which we fought that war.

I wonder whether Truman and the Congress that ratified the UN Charter were naive, stupid or treacherous.

You decide which.

(BTW, Serb, wouldn't you want the UN to be pro-democracy?)

	07-05-2003 19:15									#136
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator My Great Aunt who ended up on the Eastern side after WWII would disagree with you. She was basically a prisoner in East Germany until she turned 65. Her brother (my grandfather) was fortunate to be on the Western side. My Great Aunt never forgave the Russians for putting up the wall and foricbly dividing the country and her family.

No need to tell me this crap. I've lived there myself.

quote: I'm curious what you think of the 10,000 East Germans who risked their lives to escape to the west.

They knew what they risk, they risked it anyway, they lost. Some others won. To escape a wrong system is not a solution. To change it, is one. People did so in 1989.

quote: What "orders" were given to the West German govt from Washington? Anything comparable to a secret police? false elections? imposition of communism? forced conscription? crackdown on emigration? what?

The Western German government always did obediently what it was told by the so called "big brother". What would happen, if they disobey, was visible a few weeks ago, when it dared to disagree with a war of aggression.

quote: There was never any reason for Germany to be divided at all. Remember who built the wall.

The Federal Republic of Germany (Western Germany) was founded months before the German Democratic Republic (Eastern Germany). The NATO was also founded before the Warsaw Pact. I'm not sure if it were the Russians, who divided Germany. The Wall was idiotic and wrong, though.

	07-05-2003 19:18									#137
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quote: Originally posted by GP Gratitude seems pretty thin.

May be because it was over-stressed lately.

	07-05-2003 19:21									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Serb Both Russians and Americans share the responsibility for Cold war. Millions of people suffered because of our Russo-American showdowns. Sure Yanks will never admit that they share this responsibility with us. They prefer to believe that they were liberators, while we were evil red ass motherf*ckers.

The occupation of Germany very little to do with the cold war. It was the continued occupation/control of Poland and the other Eastern European countries, including the Baltic states; the occupation/defiance of the UN in North Korea; the support of Mao against Chang; etc., that caused the cold war. By these acts, the USSR turned what was a "noble" defensive war against Hitler into a war of aggression and conquest that was rightly resisted by the free peoples of the world.

	07-05-2003 19:22									#139
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I've heard it called "The Iraqi Syndrome" - American overconfidence. It's just as bad as the "Vietnam Syndrome" that preceded it.

I for one, was anti-war. 80+ billion dollars and hundreds of lives is an appalling cost just to snub France, Germany and Russia. The justifications were weak at best.

Alas, though. The deed is done. Now that we are there, we have an obligation similar to our obligations in Germany and Japan of 1945. Neither country could be called a success for many years to come. I suspect the same will be true of Iraq. "The success of this occupation [of Germany] can only be judged 50 years from now." - Dwight Eisenhower. Overall, I am hoping that at the very least, the Iraqis will embrace democracy, the rule of law, human rights, and other basic freedoms denied to them for so many years. It happened in Japan so it may happen again.

My only issue with France, Germany and Russia is the blatant hypocrisy. For years, America has had to face(rightyfully) criticism for propping up and supporting dictatorships in support of political ends. Now we have stories of French, German and Russian fat capitalists getting sweetheart deals with Saddam's brutal regime. Instead of condemning them, I hear a lot of the same (lame) excuses the Americans used for years.

So, in my mind, there's plenty of sin and blame to go around. Bush, who should be voted out in 2004, for his ridiculously stupid foreign policy, but also Chirac for being in the pocket of rich French capitalists to secure deals with a dictator and then deflecting the backlash with anti-American rhetoric.

	07-05-2003 19:29									#140
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Blow me , gunk.
All your analogies are bogus.

You get no vote. Mind your own business.

	07-05-2003 19:30									#141
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Overall, I am hoping that at the very least, the Iraqis will embrace democracy, the rule of law, human rights, and other basic freedoms denied to them for so many years. It happened in Japan so it may happen again. Bush, who should be voted out in 2004, for his ridiculously stupid foreign policy, but also Chirac for being in the pocket of rich French capitalists to secure deals with a dictator and then deflecting the backlash with anti-American rhetoric.

I wholeheartedly agree with your hope, Gunkulator

	07-05-2003 19:33									#142
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So do I. We shouldn't forget to topple Schroeder, too. I didn't elect him and wouldn't do it now. Bush, Chirac and Schroeder must go. Neither of them has done good for his particular country.

	07-05-2003 19:33									#143
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GP, et al., the only thing the Germans should be grateful for is that we got rid of Hitler, allowed them to form a democracy and helped them reconstruct their country after WWII.

They have reason to be ungrateful for the continued occupation of Germany by Britain, the US and by the USSR for so long. But their ire should primarily be directed at the USSR. It was the USSR who tried to cut off Berlin and who caused the erection of wall dividing free Germany from enslaved Germany.

But the USSR now is gone. We should leave as well.

	07-05-2003 19:37									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Ned GP, et al., the only thing the Germans should be grateful for is that we got rid of Hitler, allowed them to form a democracy and helped them reconstruct their country after WWII. They have reason to be ungrateful for the continued occupation of Germany by Britain, the US and by the USSR for so long. But their ire should primarily be directed at the USSR. It was the USSR who tried to cut off Berlin and who caused the erection of wall dividing free Germany from enslaved Germany. But the USSR now is gone. We should leave as well.

One thing I have to disagree on, was your view of occupying Germany, and/or Japan.
It was a boon to their economy, and hurt ours.
That's the reason to look back and have negative viewpoints.

	07-05-2003 19:39									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph No need to tell me this crap. I've lived there myself.

and you were not the only one who was affected. Likewise, your opinion is just one of many.

quote: They knew what they risk, they risked it anyway, they lost. Some others won. To escape a wrong system is not a solution.

So they were cowards then, eh? What would have been a better solution? Remember you can't include anything involving free elections, protests, free speech or armed revolt. Doesn't leave much.

quote: To change it, is one. People did so in 1989.

Because the Russians ran out of money and left. Hungary and Czechoslovakia are good examples of what happened when "the people" tried to throw off their Russian overlords.

quote: The Western German government always did obediently what it was told by the so called "big brother".

Nice non-answer. I'll ask again: What evil did the oppressive Americans force on you? Please be specific in how you were oppressed.

quote: What would happen, if they disobey, was visible a few weeks ago, when it dared to disagree with a war of aggression.

Um, OK, what exactly happened? Feel free to compare with what happened to Hungarians or Czechs or even Chechnians .

quote: The Federal Republic of Germany (Western Germany) was founded months before the German Democratic Republic (Eastern Germany). The NATO was also founded before the Warsaw Pact. I'm not sure if it were the Russians, who divided Germany. The Wall was idiotic and wrong, though.

West German gov't was formed by the French, British and Americans when those countries felt it was time for Germany to regain self-rule. The Russians preferred being an occupying power for longer. I doubt that Russian occupied East Germany would have been denied entry in the existing German gov't already running. Certainly the US would have preferred immediate reunification.

	07-05-2003 19:41									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph So do I. We shouldn't forget to topple Schroeder, too. I didn't elect him and wouldn't do it now. Bush, Chirac and Schroeder must go. Neither of them has done good for his particular country.

Sir Ralph, the vast majority of the American people disagree with your statement concerning Bush.

Also, if there was a vote in Iraq, I think the Iraqi people would also approve of Bush.

But, if you asked the same question of Americans and Iraqi's concerning Schroeder and Chirac, ...well you know what the answer would be.

	07-05-2003 19:45									#147
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Certainly the US would have preferred immediate reunification.

Don't forget to add "under the US authority". That's the beef. There were no noble motivations behind the creation of west Germany, because the cold war had already begun and Germany was its main thater at the time.

	07-05-2003 19:59									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Sir Ralph, the vast majority of the American people disagree with your statement concerning Bush.

I don't care who rules America. Just keep him if he makes you happy.

quote: Also, if there was a vote in Iraq, I think the Iraqi people would also approve of Bush.

I'm not sure about this. Neither should you.

quote: But, if you asked the same question of Americans and Iraqi's concerning Schroeder and Chirac, ...well you know what the answer would be.

Thank God nobody asks them.

	07-05-2003 20:18									#149
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French embassy in Syria has given the high officials in the Saddam regime EU passports. Search extends to Europe.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/nati...07-18959030.htm

	07-05-2003 20:25									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Don't forget to add "under the US authority". That's the beef. There were no noble motivations behind the creation of west Germany, because the cold war had already begun and Germany was its main thater at the time.

Yes, you are right. But 3 out 4 of the nations formed a German nation and did it first. The occupation would still go on for many years. There was no way any of the 4 powers would have simply left Germany alone at that time.

The onus was on the Russians to allow "their" Germany to join with the already existing German nation, while still occupying the east for legitimate security reasons. Would have been tricky, but it might have worked.

Warsaw Pact was just a formalization of reality: Russia as the overlord. The west realized fairly quickly that Russia showed no signs of withdrawing or allowing real self-rule of eastern Europe. OTOH US could have cooled things down by not forming NATO, ANZUS, SEATO. This just fed Russian paranoia. Who knows? Maybe left alone, Russia would have withdrawn by itself, however with Stalin in charge, I suspect not.