30-04-2003 01:41									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman No, I think it's possible they panicked, and opened fire. The rules of engagement are bits of paper, not natural laws. It's perfectly possible for soldiers to open fire in panic (it seems they used over one hundred rounds) and then cry 'gunmen' to cover up their failings. I think it's bizarre to think that US troops are not as fallible as any other army in history.

does it make since for this to go on for over an hour??

if there was no firing in return?? (I am not addressing the whole, who started it issue, because traditionally that is fairly meaningless)

Jon Miller

	30-04-2003 01:57									#32
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Sandman: The level of training that US soldiers go through is far beyond that of any other army in history. I think it is bizzare for someone to think that US troops would "get scared" and open fire on crowd.

	30-04-2003 01:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Sandman: The level of training that US soldiers go through is far beyond that of any other army in history. I think it is bizzare for someone to think that US troops would "get scared" and open fire on crowd.

That makes the situation worse then PLATO...

	30-04-2003 02:05									#34
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Good to see this happening. It's about damn time.

Last edited by Ramo on 30-04-2003 at 02:13

	30-04-2003 02:13									#35
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I think it is bizzare for someone to think that US troops would "get scared" and open fire on crowd.

That's exactly what they do. If they are not scared, why don't they use snipers instead of hosing people down in dozens with automatic fire? OK, it's easy for me to say in my armchair, far away from the action, but you're the one saying they aren't scared.

	30-04-2003 02:21									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sava That makes the situation worse then PLATO...

Only if you assume that they actually did open fire on a defenseless crowd. Almost assuredly, they did not.

	30-04-2003 02:22									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi **** you SA!

FuXx U SA

	30-04-2003 02:27									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre That's exactly what they do. If they are not scared, why don't they use snipers instead of hosing people down in dozens with automatic fire? OK, it's easy for me to say in my armchair, far away from the action, but you're the one saying they aren't scared.

I did not say that they were not scared. I said that they would not open fire on defensless people because they were scared.

When soldiers get scared they tend to react. The US spends a tremendous amount of time honing these reactions. Without cause, I cannot imagine any circumstance that US troops would "hose down" a defensless crowd for an hour.

In regard to snipers, I don't think it would be practical to have snipers lurking everywhere US troops are stationed.

	30-04-2003 02:35									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor FuXx U SA

**** you Saudi Arabia. SA = Initials

	30-04-2003 02:40									#40
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I know that Shi. But I couldn't resist the pun

	30-04-2003 02:50									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I know that Shi. But I couldn't resist the pun

You are sooooo bad!

	30-04-2003 03:20									#42
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quote: That has to be some of the most bold faced lies I have heard in a while. I'm watching CNN and they're showing bullit holes in the build the soldiers were in, spent 7.68 ammo casings, and even a few captured AK-47s. Please get your facts straight before spouting off.

I did not lie, I made it quite clear that this is what ITN news reported. If they were mistaken that's their fault.

quote: Sandman: The level of training that US soldiers go through is far beyond that of any other army in history. I think it is bizzare for someone to think that US troops would "get scared" and open fire on crowd.

Generic training is not so important. What matters is training in crowd control. I have no idea how much training US soldiers get in this area, can you enlighten me?

	30-04-2003 06:29									#43
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I think the only reason they were there was to protect Saudi ass from Saddam.

GP, why do you think it's a bad idea?

	30-04-2003 07:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider This is great news.

I don't know if it was intentional, but the juxtaposition of the quoted post and the one above (from Sandman) is mildly amusing, to say the least.

	30-04-2003 07:48									#45
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I'm not sure it's a bad or good idea. It just makes me a little uneasy. I think it is a bit of a trendy thing. I guess my major worry is engagement with the Saudi leadership.

	30-04-2003 07:49									#46
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Sandman, Your position is that US soldiers wantonly opened fire on a peaceful crowd?? You should eithier get a life or get an education on US rules of engagement.

That's not the first time that happened in this war. US soldiers opened fire several times at civilian cars, at reporter cars, and at hotels. I can't see there's any plausible defenses.

	30-04-2003 09:55									#47
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if we attacked them from within their country, we'd be breaking an RoP, and the rest of the civs would remember that.

we're just doing this to maintain all those trades for luxuries later on.

	30-04-2003 10:00									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger That's not the first time that happened in this war. US soldiers opened fire several times at civilian cars, at reporter cars, and at hotels. I can't see there's any plausible defenses.

1. Reporters running around in a war zone that they had been warned to stay out of.

2. TROE do not say that no mistakes will occur. You can follow the rules of engagement and still have collateral damage. Yes.

3. Do you have any proof of diliberate targeting of noncombatants?

	30-04-2003 16:57									#49
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So bin Ladin's campaign of shock and awe has succeeded.

	30-04-2003 17:07									#50
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i think the point that a lot of us are missing is not how we see it, but how the iraqis see it. they see americans killing iraqis and freedom fighters for iraq. we seem them attacking our troops and our troops defending themselves.

	30-04-2003 17:44									#51
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And than you have poly tubbies. Who sit and play war games on their computers. Making comments like, "why not use snipers"? What a dumshit response. Like they a. had snipers there. b. knew there would be a problem.

	30-04-2003 19:54									#52
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MRT144 is right. Attacks of this nature are clearly not serious military actions for either side. They are propaganda tools. While there have undoubtably been casualities due to mistakes on the part of the US, it would be naive to expect the opposition to not take advantage of the chaos to make the US look bad when the oppurtunity arises.

	30-04-2003 20:00									#53
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quote: What a dumshit response

you do know there is a "B" in there, right? It's spelled like this.

quote: dumbsh1t

	30-04-2003 20:06									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The demonstrators claim that the Americans fired first. ITN news reporters noted that the school the Americans had occupied (and the parents demostrating wanted back) had no bullet holes. The Americans evidence for the gunmen was three AK-47s they claimed to have recovered. I see no reason whatsoever to believe the soldiers' version of events.

FYI, I have seen video of bullet holes in the school occuppied by the US troops. I have also heard that the firefight went on for hours.

But, of course, the Iraqi's were fighting for hours without weapons.

	30-04-2003 20:08									#55
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Get a grip people: the Sauds are generally as glad to see us gone as you guys are that we leave, though they won;t say it in public. The fact is that we will still jump to protect the Sauds at the drop of a hat if it comes to that, and we will still sell them billions of dolars of top-notch Us hardware.

We are moving from one Gulf Kingdom to another, with the big change being the Big one has clout and thus the ability to disagree in public whjile the tiny ones really want us and would never say a word. (Same thing in Europe and elsewhere).

	30-04-2003 20:08									#56
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I don't believe the Americans fired first. I think it was just a ****ed situation.

	30-04-2003 20:11									#57
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As to the main point, the US withdrawing from unfriendly regimes, I wholely endorse the idea. We are moving out of Germany as well.

Pulling our troops out will of course free us to be more public with our criticism of Saudi Arabia, which seems extremely repressive. However extreme the government seems, those that would replace them would be worse. In such an environment, what can we do to make matters better? I can think of nothing.

	30-04-2003 20:12									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I don't believe the Americans fired first. I think it was just a ****ed situation.

I don't think any reasonable person would think the US fired first.

	30-04-2003 20:17									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As to the main point, the US withdrawing from unfriendly regimes, I wholely endorse the idea. We are moving out of Germany as well.

Ned. The sad thing is you actually believe this.

	30-04-2003 20:18									#60
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 I don't think any reasonable person would think the US fired first.

Why? Anyone hear remember the Boston Massacre?