30-04-2003 08:55									#1
	AI trading Glitch/Exploit? Enter the AD-FREE zone

The olg glitch where the AI could pay out sums that would cripple it as well as gpt sums that it didn't have is well documented.

However, I've noticed through several games now that some gpt deals are rolled over (ie: not cancelled) after the 20 turns have experied. However, when you go to renegotiate them, they will refuse it.

It seems like the AI has forgotten about the deal and is only reminded of the expenditure when you bring it up. And similarly, your foreign advisor will tell you that "They will never accept that", even though they've been paying you for however many turns without cancelling you. I also commonly assume that comment to mean that the AI doesn't have the gpt income to pay.

This is common in most trades where 1 gpt can make the difference between your foreign advisor telling you "This is acceptable" and "They will never pay you that"

So in the meantime, what have they been doing to pony up the cash?

Comments? anyone know why this is?

	30-04-2003 08:57									#2
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Here is an attached image of a recent deal.

From the trade box, you'll see 40 gpt for incense and dyes. No numbers in brackets meaning the 20 turns are up. But England has not cancelled it.

It is also paying me 90 gpt for buying a tech from me.

Now, when I go to renegotiate it, I am turned down.

NOT SHOWN: My foreign advisor also tells me with a frown that they will never accept the deal which they have been accepting for several turns without cancellation.

Attachment: liz.jpg
This has been downloaded 203 time(s).

	30-04-2003 09:03									#3
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They've probably had to run at a defecit to pay you for a few turns. They won't do that, given a choice, so when you try to renegotiate, they refuse. I try to keep track of which civs have cash on hand so I can determine who to squeeze for more and who to leave as-is.

	30-04-2003 10:57									#4
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It's possible. I renegotiated the trade about 10 turns later and was able to get more gpt out of them.

One thing to note though, they have 0 gold in the bank. So I'm not sure where they are getting the gold from if they were running a deficit.

	30-04-2003 11:19									#5
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Many things could impact their finances. Other trades could expire, they could trade for income. Cities could improve their cash position with new workers or mines.
Some units could have been lost or disband and on and on.
A large empire has many means and options.

	30-04-2003 13:18									#6
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Did the original deal have a Tech involved?

I think it has to do with the trigger for the AI renegotiating a deal not being set at the same level as for the AI accepting the deal in the first place. So if a deal becomes less valuable to the AI, it keeps with it until the 'renegotiate' level instead of the 'acceptable trade' level.

This happens a lot when a Tech is involved in a Resource trade. The AI are paying gpt for the Tech and Resources when they accept the trade, but the Tech comes off the books after 20 turns. If the renegotiation isn't triggered at that point, the AI will continue paying the gpt for the Resources, but if the player renegotiates, then the AI goes with the 'acceptable trade'.

	30-04-2003 13:18									#7
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Many things could impact their finances. Other trades could expire, they could trade for income. Cities could improve their cash position with new workers or mines. Some units could have been lost or disband and on and on. A large empire has many means and options.

You misunderstood. I'm sure an Empire has many means and options to pay, but I wonder how it can pay me when it had 0 in the bank, without doing some slider adjustments and or massive disbanding of units.
Anyways, I'll look into it some more.

Hopefully, someone can shed some light on it.

quote: Did the original deal have a Tech involved?

Aeson, it is possible that it may have involved a tech. I can't remember, but I'll definately look into it next time I'm playing.

	30-04-2003 21:43									#8
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quote: Originally posted by dexters I'm sure an Empire has many means and options to pay, but I wonder how it can pay me when it had 0 in the bank, without doing some slider adjustments and or massive disbanding of units.

Did the AI have 0 Gold in its Treasury, and are you sure? The AI is not willing to accept deficit spending when trading, but will do so to honor deals. So the AI could have been losing, say, 90gpt for a couple of turns until you renegotiated the deal, at which point it did not want to trade anymore (to avoid losing more Gold).

Like vmxa1 said, this can happen for many reasons. Let's say the AI you're trading with has a gpt deal with another civ, and this deal expires before your deal expires. To you, it may look like the AI is changing behaviours without a change in circumstances, but you do not have the whole picture. Specifically, the AI no longer has the gpt from the third party, and therefore cannot continue the trade with you. Most "weird" AI trading behaviours (other than those involving Attitude and Reputation) are due to the AIs refusal to employ deficit spending.


Dominae

	30-04-2003 22:51									#9
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There is a "glitch" in the AI trading. Sometimes he forgets and doesn't renegotiate deals even if he has no need for them anymore. Especially resources. And it's true that you can keep deals going for higher prices than the AI is willing to pay if you renegotiate. I don't know how the AI copes with the trade, but it's certain that he doesn't want to pay that much for said resource anymore.

eg. I research and see saltpeter and the AI I want to trade it to also knows about saltpeter. I look in his territory and it has saltpeter, but he hasn't hooked it up yet to his trade network. I dial him up, create a trade at oh say 32 gpt for saltpeter. And let the deal last for the whole game, even if the AI has later hooked up the saltpeter, he will not nullify the trade. If I were to renegotiate, the trade would "disappear." So I'm taking 32 gpt away from the AI that he could be using elsewhere.

I've mentioned this before, and I don't think it will be fixed.

	30-04-2003 23:19									#10
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Is there a reason why the AI doesn't renegotiate sometimes? Is the renegotiation trigger dependent on something? Perhaps the AI has limited computing cycles and randomly picks trade deals to re-evaluate each turn.

In my cause the AI would have rejected the deal had I renegotiated them, but about 10 turns later, it gladly paid more when I tried to renegotiate again.

So it is likely that this problem may be more common than we think and we just miss it sometimes.

quote: Did the AI have 0 Gold in its Treasury, and are you sure? The AI is not willing to accept deficit spending when trading, but will do so to honor deals. So the AI could have been losing, say, 90gpt for a couple of turns until you renegotiated the deal, at which point it did not want to trade anymore (to avoid losing more Gold).

I am absolutely sure on this point. After the comments on this board suggesting they may be spending a deficit, I checked Elizabeth's gold in the diplomatic screen. It was 0.

	30-04-2003 23:49									#11
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The forum search function isn't cooperating. I posted a similar query some time ago and alexman provided a convincing answer though I can't for the life of me remember the full contours of the answer. I think it centered on the view that there might be a "randomness" factor in an AI's decision to renegotiate deals or something similar to what Aeson posted. Maybe alexman can remember his theory.

Catt

	01-05-2003 00:19									#12
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Did Alexman's theory explain why the AI will pay 32+ gpt for something he doesn't need anymore?

quote: Originally posted by dexters In my cause the AI would have rejected the deal had I renegotiated them, but about 10 turns later, it gladly paid more when I tried to renegotiate again.

In this case, I doubt it was a "glitch." This is most likely due to

a) the price for the deal increased
b) the AI got some more gold freed up when another gpt turn deal with another AI ended (as stated before)
c) if the AI doesn't have enough gpt/tech/gold to give you the "fair" market value, he will usually offer all he has. If he has more resources later, he will offer the full value.
d) a combination of the above

If you continue to change the price, it's easy to see the current maximum available gpt from the AI. Keep upping the amount till you get "he would be insulted by this deal" from your advisor. If you then decrease the offer by 1gpt and your advisor says "this deal would be acceptable." Then the AI currently only has that amount of gpt available for any deals. This number will change from turn to turn as his a) cities grow, b) other gpt's end, c) he sells a tech for gpt, etc.

Personally, when I'm way ahead of the other AI, I like to "max out" what I can offer him to see exactly what he has available for me to exploit. I may offer sanitation, nationalism, steam engine, wines, incense, iron, saltpeter, and my world map, just to see what his maximum trade to me could be. Then I start taking out things to see just how little I need to give to him to get the maximum from his gpt reserves. I'm sure many others employ similar tactics.

	01-05-2003 00:29									#13
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I'm aware of the Trade advisor signal to find out just how much gpt the AI has.

The glitch/exploit I'm referring to is the fact that the AI didn't renegotiate during the turns it wasn't willing to pay for the luxuries at that price. The price it WAS WILLING to pay was probably in the 30 gpt range. So the differential might have only been 5 to 15 gpt.

The fact that it agreed to the same deal at a higher gpt later on is somewhat of an aside. I'm more concerned about how the AI is paying for it during the turns where it couldn't or wouldn't pay the price.

Was it selling off improvements? disbanding units? making money from thin air? adjusting its sliders?

Last edited by dexters on 01-05-2003 at 00:34

	01-05-2003 00:38									#14
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With no definite proof other than knowledge of how the rest of the game is designed, I doubt very much there is any randomness in AI trading.

If Lizzie really had 0 Gold in her Treasury and was running a deficit, you were effectively destroying one of her improvements every turn. Depending on what the trade was worth to her, this may have been a good deal for the AI.

I have noticed the glitch badams mentions. Personally I'm trying to figure out what the "Always Renegotiate Deals" option is supposed to do. Does it mean "always renegotiate deals when the AI remembers to, according to some fuzzy logic", or what?


Dominae

	01-05-2003 00:47									#15
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It probably toggles a pop up and renegotiates a deal every 20 turns.

But you know, not doing it every 20 turns is more natural. Sometimes, AI will keep trade around and when I go to renegotiate, I would be told the deal is still acceptable to them.

So there is some logic there. It is the odd cases where they keep deals around but it's not acceptable that I wonder about.

Perhaps the AI only does a quick check at the end of the 20 turns, and never again. This means if they think the deal is still ok at the end of turn 20, they may keep it. But situations change and at turn 25, when I remember to renegotiate, they may suddenly be unwilling to pay for it.

	01-05-2003 00:53									#16
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As the human player, if I check "Always Renegotiate Deals", I expect the deals to always be renegotiated every 20 turns. It makes no difference to me if the AI wants to keep the trade or not; I want to see the the leader's face and reagree on the deal every 20 turns. Is this not what the option is meant to do?


Dominae

	01-05-2003 00:55									#17
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got it dexters. unfortunately, to answer that question, you would probably need to ask Soren, and I haven't seen him post on this board in a looooong time.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae I have noticed the glitch badams mentions. Personally I'm trying to figure out what the "Always Renegotiate Deals" option is supposed to do. Does it mean "always renegotiate deals when the AI remembers to, according to some fuzzy logic", or what?

I believe the "ARD" option makes it so that after 20 turns if you forget to renegotiate the deal, the diplomacy screen comes up as if you were the one renegotiating and not the AI, but I'm not certain. I remember sometimes that if you click on the deal to renegotiate the price the AI would say "no way," even though he was willing to accept the deal before you tried to renegotiate. But I also think that sometimes when it comes up, the AI says "we must renegotiate." I'm guessing in those cases the AI would have contacted us to renegotiate if the ARD wasn't checked.

What I also find amusing is when you have 2 separate deals that are ending on the same turn (I do this sometimes cause you can take more gold from the AI this way for luxuries). If you have ARD checked, you get one one turn, and the second the next turn.

	01-05-2003 01:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae As the human player, if I check "Always Renegotiate Deals", I expect the deals to always be renegotiated every 20 turns. It makes no difference to me if the AI wants to keep the trade or not; I want to see the the leader's face and reagree on the deal every 20 turns. Is this not what the option is meant to do?

Have you never used it Dominae? The basic is that after the 20 turn deal you have going expires and you forget during your turn to renegotiate the deal, during the AI's turn the diplomacy screen comes up and you are face to face with the AI asking to renegotiate.

I was afraid that having ARD on would force me to cancel those exploitive salpeter gpt deals, but it doesn't. The deal is still there and all you need to do is to click accept this deal and it's renewed for another 20 turns even though the AI already hooked up his saltpeter and doesn't need this deal anymore.

	01-05-2003 01:06									#19
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Ah, I misunderstood the glitch in question. I thought the glitch referred to was the discrepancy between the AI choosing to continue a deal (i.e., not renegotiate) when its income was insufficient to cover the payments vs. the AI refusing to continue the deal when you renegotiate it. That glitch was highlighted when the "always renegotiate" option came into play, and you could save and reload to see that: (1) the AI wouldn't end a deal on its own; but (2) would refuse the deal if you chose to renegotiate (apparently because of a lack of adequate current income). In other words, the AI would happily continue a deal that it would reject if you reoffered it.

Dominae - think of "always renegotiate" as a computer-aided reminder to you that a deal has expired. Without the option enabled, your 20 turn deals will continue until the Ai seeks to renegotiate or you manually reopen the negotiations. With the option enabled, each of your 20 turn deals pops up on the trade table as it expires (forcing / reminding you to renegotiate a deal).

badams52 - no, alexman's explanation didn't address that. One could spin a tale that iron, when no longer needed, was still worth something as a "backup" supply, but that explantion falls apart with horses or rubber (since they won't deplete). That, IMHO, is a glitch.

BTW - others have pointed out some potentially helpful tactics wrt the "always renegotiate." The one I remeber (and could find easily with the search function) was by TheNicoOne at CFC:

quote: Originally posted by TheNiceOne at CFC I'd also like to add that there may be a good reason for turning the "Always renegotiate deals after 20 turns" preference. If you have several deals going on with the same civ and want them all to end at the same time (just before you declare war), you should turn the option off, so that one deal doesn't get renegotiated 3 turns before your planned attack. Another interesting trade lesson I learned last game was this: If you buy a resource from a civ for gold or techs, and you really want to continue to buy this resource, then add 1 gpt to the deal as well, even if the deal is already accepted. The reason for this is that if you only gave instant goods (tech, gold), then when the deal is over after 20 turns, the AI will simply let it fade unnoticed, and may contact another AI civ and sell the resource there before you even get a chance to suggest a deal. If you added 1 gpt to the deal however, then the AI will call you up, and tell that it want to end the resource for 1gpt deal, and then you get the chance to suggest a new deal.

Catt

Edit: bunch of x-posts make my response largely duplicative.

	01-05-2003 01:08									#20
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I always use ARD. The AI very often forgets to pop up a window when a particular 20-turn deal is up. I know this because in the OCC AU, I would have had popups every few turns. In fact I had very few.

It seems to me that the AI will offer to renegotiate deals only under special circumstances, which makes the 'A' in ARD very misleading.


Dominae

	01-05-2003 01:13									#21
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Additionally, the AI will "forget" to inform you when a deal expires and it has no desire to renew it (which is close to what the leader-head actually says). I would assume this is a case of renegotiation, yet it does not always offer you this service (even if the option is selected).


Dominae

	01-05-2003 01:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae I always use ARD. The AI very often forgets to pop up a window when a particular 20-turn deal is up. I know this because in the OCC AU, I would have had popups every few turns. In fact I had very few. It seems to me that the AI will offer to renegotiate deals only under special circumstances, which makes the 'A' in ARD very misleading.

Take a look at TheNiceOne's post I quoted above - it may explain the curiousity. ARD will only operate on deals that have continuing obligations from both sides, so gpt in exchange for techs just fade away after 20 turns. If you weren't getting renegotiation options on resources-for-gpt or resources-for-resources . . . then that's weird -- I haven't ever failed to generate a renegotiation pop-up in such circumstances (sometimes to my detriment )

Catt

	01-05-2003 01:20									#23
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I'll pay closer attention next time I play.

End thread-jack.


Dominae

	01-05-2003 01:21									#24
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And now I remember better the subject that alexman weighed in on but still not his precise theory (though I now think it was very much like Aeson's) -- with the advent of "always renegotiate" you could happily click "agreed" to renew a deal for 20 turns but if you choose to renegotiate you wouldn't be able to strike the same deal.

Sorry for the confusion I've injected into this thread

Catt

	01-05-2003 01:34									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Catt And now I remember better the subject that alexman weighed in on but still not his precise theory (though I now think it was very much like Aeson's) -- with the advent of "always renegotiate" you could happily click "agreed" to renew a deal for 20 turns but if you choose to renegotiate you wouldn't be able to strike the same deal.

I thought that's the very glitch which prompted dexter to start this thread.




Dominae

	01-05-2003 01:38									#26
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and the confusion reigns! I thought the glitch was that the AI continued a deal even though it was beyond its current income and its treasury was gone -- meaning it was disbanding units or selling improvements to do so That was my second take on the glitch at issue, and was based on this quote:

quote: Originally posted by dexters I'm more concerned about how the AI is paying for it during the turns where it couldn't or wouldn't pay the price.

Catt

	01-05-2003 01:44									#27
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You guys seem Bamboozled with this whole story...

	01-05-2003 02:11									#28
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That other thread offered some interesting theories on why this is happening.

I wish Soren would weigh in on this :/