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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:27
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I just can't see Vox voluntarily disarming and withdrawing to the North. They have their pride, and they still have a large army of immortals. They probably think they can win. The time for these demands are after we've smashed their offensive and taken D'ville. But after that, the road to the voice will be open, and we can flood the corridor with wcs and quickly take them, so why give them peace then? They betrayed us, spouted lies about us on the main forum, and we would let them live?
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:27
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Although I would love a good partner to take on RP, Vox is not that ally, IMO. We couldn't ever trust them again, and there's a bit of a problem with their military strength: if we hurt them badly so they want to play submissive to us, they are of little help on Bob. If we don't hurt them badly, the risk is too big for back stabbing, which they'll do if they smell the chance.
The only possible scenario where the risk would be acceptable would be if we gain all land up to the Neck, at which point it would be more effective for us to simply take all, instead of leaving Vox with a small landsize. It's unfortunate, but they sought it themselves, I want them of our continent. Let them seek refuge in Legoland, for all I care.
I would have liked getting ND as an ally, but it doesn't seem that is going to happen. They are without much doubt talking to GoW, so either that is against RP, or with them against us. in 10 turns time, we might need that army of us to withstand invasions, instead to invading others.
DeepO
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:27
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A thought I just had:
GoW probably just entered Republic becaue it knows that its going to use its riders as soon as they get them. Fun. the good thing is that it will take them what, at least 4 or 5 galley turns to reach us from Port Isolation. I just can't see BoB attacking us en masse yet, the just don't have the galley strength yet.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:27
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Question for Aeson or others:
How many tiles are estimated for a domination victory on this map?
Would it be conceivable that the landmass of Bob and Lego combined would be enough, thus not forcing them to invade us?
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Shiber
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Haifa, Israel
Jul 2002
time: 07:27
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On the matter of radical ideas,
One of the members of Vox (who repeatedly asked not to be named) approached me regarding the issues at hand.
Posted below is the important bits of our conversation, with stuff that might give away his identity removed, of course.
Messages are separated by a hypen.
The war was clearly a mistake and due to Feudalism and soon Chivaly it wont be able to achieve it's goal. This is what I also wrote in our forums.
Beta and NYE discussed options last night, but I think I have another one to offer.
It's a bit far fetching and I dont think it will be popular with both teams and that's why I want to talk about it with you first, so that you will discuss is with other team members(without mentioning the source) and see the mood. If I see that it has a chance to suceed, I'll officialy propose it.
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Basically... Our goal is to ensure future supply of resources. Most chances are that we will end up without Coal, Rubber, Aluminium, Uranium, Oil, etc. Our land sucks,
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Your goal, as I see it, is domination. Not domination victory, but you plan to become a leading superpower, and your land and "all star" team is a great start.
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What I have in mind is an offer that will give both of us what we desire.
But it's a difficult one.
You will have to give up on any immediate gain you might have thought about having from what you can call your victory in this war.
And we will have to give up on everything we hoped to achieve with this war and basically be dependant on you and probably give up on Vox victory.
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But overall, both teams will have a better future with my offer.
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* me mentioning that GS can conquer Vox with relatively little investment - I thought this would make him spit out some useful info, and it did *
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You cant. Feudalism is only a few turns away, and you wont be able to break through Elipolis. While every sea landing will be easily repealed. You'll waste resources on conquering Diss' Ville and storming the walls of Elipolis while the Bob teams will run ahead of you.
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* I get sortof angry at the guy, there's some chit-chat and then: *
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Ok.
Basically it's on offer of a complete alliance.
We will get(buy at a heavily discounted price) the resources and some techs from you. While our one(and in the future maybe two) circle of productive cities and the efforts of our civilization will be focused on helping you to achieve dominance(officialy it will be a dominance of the GS-Vox alliance, but practically you will be the scoreboard civ since we'll be dependant on your resources, etc).
It is clear than two circles of productive cities are better than one and that four are better than two.
The land arrangement will stay as decided in an agreement a gazillion years, but everything is changeable*.
* - The first clause of our alliance will state that the goal of the alliance is world domination and that both sides will strive to achieve it. "Personal" civ issues should always be willingly and happily compromised to achieve that goal.
More on the way.
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I got this idea from a PBEM game I play now.
(name removed #1) has an average-large landmass for himself.
(name removed #2) controls 80% of a huge continent and he's the dominant civ.
I have the other 20% and I'm pretty much ****ed up economically.
I have an alliance with (name removed #1) and we fight against (name removed #2) for a millenium now, it started with Knights and now we're on the verge of use of Airpower.
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Our goal is victory over Spencer.
I gift him cities when neccessary for bases, we gift each other as many luxuries as we can, technologies are given freely(unless he doenst have them, so one of us keeps it to slow down (name removed #2)'s research).
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Our forces fight together, we coordinate all our actions.
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This can be a bit far fetching for us at this stage, but my offer is something similar.
Tech/lux/resource trades wont be free(but heavily discounted) and we will fight together.
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So basically. Just like in my PBEM game. You will play the role of Jshelr trying to be the winner and we will be the ones who willingly assist him in everything we can, and in return keeping our civ advanced and viable.
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Such agreement will be very long term one and with a very long warning time(so that one side wont be able to leave without giving a X turn warning).
(x >=20, for example).
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You will be able to claim we become vassals(as long as it's private, as soon as my team hears about such term it all goes down).
While we will be able to claim a defeat in war without loss of land and overall achieve much more than we'll be able to get from our lousy land.
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My team is never going to win. So it's best for us to ally with someone who might and at least be an ally of a winner, instead of staying in the medieval ages while everyone are Industrial.
Your team will get a very poweful support base(1 and maybe 2) production circles.
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Basically he's offering a super-alliance or something where our two civs will almost act as one civ with two production circles. I've made it clear to him that this requires trust, and frankly GS doesn't have much of that for Vox.
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
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Basically... Our goal is to ensure future supply of resources. Most chances are that we will end up without Coal, Rubber, Aluminium, Uranium, Oil, etc. Our land sucks, |
Uranium? Did they actually type that? 
How is there going to be two of each item on our island? I just can't see that happening.
quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
You will have to give up on any immediate gain you might have thought about having from what you can call your victory in this war.
And we will have to give up on everything we hoped to achieve with this war and basically be dependant on you and probably give up on Vox victory.
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I don't get this passage.
quote:
Originally posted by Shiber
You cant. Feudalism is only a few turns away, and you wont be able to break through Elipolis. While every sea landing will be easily repealed. You'll waste resources on conquering Diss' Ville and storming the walls of Elipolis while the Bob teams will run ahead of you.
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Ouch DeepO, good job. Of course, feudalism is useless without iron. This guy is pretty funny. They continually underrate us. Oh, and how are they getting feudalism, eh? buying from GoW? pretty funny.
I don't like this idea of a super alliance. Seems like they are trying to weasel their way out of this war.
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DeepO
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supporting Candle'Bre
Jan 2002
time: 06:27
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Of course it's obvious who he is, but that's okay.
Shiber, the problem is that they are still underestimating us. Of course we know that they will get Fedualism soon, possibly before we can reach Elipolis. However, it's a simple matter of maths if we could take it or not. We can also be quite certain they will not have iron anymore by that time, and we have all the time in the world to whittle them down, including their precious walls (on plains!) before actually going in for the kill.
Further, we can probably put twice as many units on their land by boat as they have, in 20 turns time, certainly if they keep squandering them in 'small' stacks camping in our territory.
Sure, he ( ) has a point in that Bob will take advantage of this, but having a clear passage to a 1-tile sea to Bob could be what makes all this worth it. And seriously, how could we benefit from Vox, with their underdeveloped cities and territory? We're past babysitting, we have done that before, and they back-stabbed us. Even if it may not be the most efficient way of handling this game, it certainly will be good to clean them out.
My apologies to your friend, this is not personal, but indeed they made a mistake, and have to pay the price for it. Or at least, that's my opinion on the matter. I do appreciate it you want to serve as an informal communication channel, though.
DeepO
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
We gain considerably if a deal can be worked out. The question is how much assurance do we need of Voxes fidelity, and do they have it in their power to satisfy that need. |
How would they explain this to their current allies without exposing our new alliance? How could we trust them not to turn against us if they got a better deal?
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30-04-2003 21:28
you don't think that.... anyway if we can take Vox soon, or at least take up to Eli, then we can shift fronts when inevitible hammer falls on BoB. And when it falls, its going to hit fast, I don't expect ND to be able to survive for long considering the long fronts on both borders. We have to be in position to hit RP within 3 turns of the break out of that war, or we will lose the window of opportunity. Best case scenario-we blow back the Vox forces to eli. leave some on mop up, shift our knigts back south and load them just in time for the break out of war. We land on madrid a turn later and slap RP silly. 
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