03-05-2003 03:59									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson I just read through your chat log NYE, and I get the impression they want an alliance to 'pay off' (getting land on BOB) before giving up the land to us.

that was the impression that I got as well. Of course, that would be unacceptable to us. Sure, we'll let you keep everything for now, and if you take anything on bob, we will get blah blah. yeh right.

	03-05-2003 04:09									#92
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It is possible that that is their intent. Of course, that is unacceptable.

What strikes me is that they are mentally preparing to give up. Also, further reinforcement of the fact that they just want to continue to participate. It is my opinion that their attack on us was just about guaranteed when Bob united to keep them off. Combine that with us not seeming to be very enthusiastic about romping on Bob and then making noises about the tech agreement and... as a good play they had no choices.

Oh. Last thing is confirmation that they are getting support from other civs.

	03-05-2003 04:11									#93
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Well... they are still underestimating us. I wouldn't mind stalling them for 2 or 3 turns, and really do some damage to them. They still don't realize that even with help from their 'friends', they are essentially lost.

I wouldn't even mind waiting until we take D-ville, or build Inchon, at that moment they have reason to be submissive, and won't start asking about alliances anymore...

DeepO

	03-05-2003 04:14									#94
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Well, I wouldn't mind keeping them in the game, and to do that, they need more then 1 city... It's not that I hate the team, or something like that, but it's a fine line between having a possible backstabbing partner, and a vasal. I'd rather have the latter, if I can choose

DeepO

	03-05-2003 04:23									#95
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* alva makes a note never to date DeepO girlfriend behind his back

	03-05-2003 04:37									#96
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Sorry if I have to play the hawk here

I was just thinking on the log again, and realised something interesting: Beta said that GoW landing where they did put them in an awkward position.... very strange comment, and easy to miss. Basically, it would mean that GoW invading was certainly a joined effort between Vox and GoW, but something went wrong, possibly with timing. Vox could have simply ignored the landing, and continued to whatever goal they had in mind, instead of spreading out, and putting 2 smaller stacks on the flats, leaving one stack without clear goal.

They now realize it was a mistake, as we were able to destroy all of their flat troops, and indeed, if they had waited one turn before splitting off, they could have been at the forking position, which would have made it a lot harder for us to both destroy GoW, and all of their troops. We might still have kept our cities, but at least it would have been closer.

So, who are the 'friends' of Vox? We need 2, and one is certainly GoW. The other one has long been thought to be RP. And Vox claim GoW and ND are close, while ND and RP would allegedly not talk to each other.

Or, RP was simply a ruse from GoW, as they provided us with this information, and the payment at the time could simply have been payment for tech. Which means ND, with their 3 week stall on Feudalism is a likely candidate... maybe we shouldn't attack RP anyway.

And of course, there is always Legoland, who might not be so builder-like as they seem... they could very well have smelled the intrigue, and decided to put some oil on the fire too. Weren't they the first ones to ask publicly if we and Vox weren't playing a ruse? This sounds very similar to Togas' "We will deny we send you this" messages....

Argh... the paranoia! I think it's about time to get some diplomatic contacts going again, so we can at least find out what others think about the situation! however, it's about time to go to bed for me, I need to leave early tomorrow (well, before noon anyway), and shouldn't be back until Sunday night.. no chats for me with Legoland

DeepO

	03-05-2003 04:50									#97
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I posted what I would view as acceptable terms for peace a few turns back. Basically, they abandon Elipolis, we build a city on the hill beside it so we can park a big force of pikes behind hill city walls in case Vox tries a doublecross, and Vox pays our upkeep expenses on that pike force. And, of course, we get all points south.

In exchange, we could provide Vox with iron as long as a resource disappearance wouldn't force us to do without, and we could promise to give Vox whatever tech we can without undercutting our efforts to make good deals with other teams. (We aren't going to pay extra just because other teams make us pay the cost for Vox to get the tech too, though.) And when and assuming we view the time as right for military operations elsewhere in the world, Vox would certainly be welcome to join us and claim some land for themselves.

Even on those terms, I view offering peace as more or less a break-even proposition, something that could be either good or bad for us depending on whether Vox decides to doublecross us again, on the future of the war, and on whether we could finish off Vox and have adequate forces to take advantage of the situation before war breaks out on Bob.

The real tragedy is that if Vox had been more trustworthy, and if we had realized how well-armed they really were, I for one would have viewed them as an extremely valuable potential partner if war erupts on Bob. But now, any possibility of partnershiip is horribly tainted by the fact that they deliberately lied to us in order to set up an attack on us. For me, it has nothing to do with revenge, but rather with how extraordinarily difficult it is to form a viable agreement when one side cannot be trusted to keep its end.

Nathan

	03-05-2003 04:53									#98
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay For me, it has nothing to do with revenge, but rather with how extraordinarily difficult it is to form a viable agreement when one side cannot be trusted to keep its end.

I agree, that words it well.

DeepO

	03-05-2003 05:05									#99
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I'l be the ultra-hawk.

Screw Vox. They lied, and they will die. I refuse to ally with a backstabber.

To the extent we start switching over to fastmovers, i am not so worried about a)the use of GA shields and the long-term implications on building, or b) defending our continent should the bobians, orthers, cast a greedy eye in our direction.

Again... Vox burns to the ground, and we conduct arcane rituals about the demise of our ancient enemy forevermore.

	03-05-2003 05:24									#100
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Does anyone actually have strong feelings in favor of finding a way for Vox to survive?

	03-05-2003 05:26									#101
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Does anyone actually have strong feelings in favor of finding a way for Vox to survive?

There are two ways that I could live with Vox surviving

1. exiled to some island, perhaps little bob or maybe a city on legoland.

or

2. The team is destroyed but the spirit of vox lives on in other teams. Teams other than GS of course.

	03-05-2003 05:34									#102
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Having at least one Vox member coming to GS wouldn't hurt us.

	03-05-2003 05:35									#103
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quote: Originally posted by alva Having at least one Vox member coming to GS wouldn't hurt us.

No, I agree. One is ok. There are some that I think would be unwelcome here, but they would likely find homes elsewhere if they wanted.

	03-05-2003 05:39									#104
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I think it a pity to eliminate any team from this game, but such is it's nature, so no strong feelings on taking them out .

	03-05-2003 05:48									#105
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Now who are the hawks here

Oh well... for me it's the same. I don't particularly like the idea of allying with them, however I could settle for peace (but preferably after we cut their wings some more, too dangerous otherwise). But an absolute demand for me is that we gain access to the Neck, either by getting Elipolis, or by letting them disband it, and we building a city on the hill next to it like Nathan suggested. As said, they are still underestimating us, and to have easier diplomatic negotiations, I wouldn't mind continuing this war for at least a couple of turns.

As to them needing a refuge: both options fine for me. I don't have very strong feelings to keep them in the game, but I don't intend to get us in a crazy 'Kill the last Voxian settler' game either. And if they want to become our vasals, fine by me, but only after they are seriously reduced in size, or the risk would be too much.

DeepO

	03-05-2003 08:14									#106
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Message received from Beta, and they have moved the turn on. Sounds like they are withdrawing from Tempest.

I should send him a reply. Something along the lines that one of his team brought the matter up with one of us and the discussion over here has started. Then, nothing can come from us until we have a proposal from Vox OR we are currently voting on proposals.

Waiting for input.

	03-05-2003 09:56									#107
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I'm in favor of taking them out.

But, if the majority really does think it best, I guess I could accept us getting control of everything south of the neck, with a bunch of pikemen behind walls on a hill.

EVEN THEN, however, I DO NOT want Vox to think we've "got their back" if they go and commit hari cari over on Bob.

I not only view Vox as a military threat, but as a diplomatic liability.

Frankly, I say we toast 'em.

-Arrian

	03-05-2003 12:00									#108
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Reply to Beta posted here for convenience:

Got your message. Don't have a lot to say at the moment. Good idea not to treat our discussion as definitive yet. I am waiting to hear from you as to the views of Vox.

/end message.

I am signing off now for a bit. Not sure when I will be around tomorrow. Early I hope, but I cannot predict. I wanted to reply before things progressed too far. We should have the turn shortly as I see vondrack stirring.

	03-05-2003 15:26									#109
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Nice... I like new turns to hurl bananas on mortals

As to the message: sounds fine to me (wasn't around this morning to send it then). There is no need for hurry, we're in the strong position here, and they want something of us, not the other way around. So let them come to us, and we can respond.

DeepO

	03-05-2003 15:46									#110
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I've been thinking about the best way we could use Vox. For us to really be able to take advantage of them as allies, they need to be off our Island so we can both trust each other enough to co-operate.

Vox's land isn't anything special, and RP has beautiful terrain to their S that they aren't in position to claim for quite a while yet. Perhaps we could 'land' Vox there by building cities of our own and giving them to Vox. Vox reciprocates by giving us their cities on our Island, and then disbanding their Capitol to jump their palace to BOB. We then give them back a city, they move all their units into it, and then give the city back to us. All their units are then transported to their capitol on BOB. We could feed them Workers to build up their pop fast (most of Vox's cities they give us won't be good for much else but building Workers until we get our FP up anyways).

We get our Island clean of foreigners, and Vox gets their best chance to have a viable core. The main concern is if RP is willing to let ND bring Ansars through their territory and/or GoW bring Riders to hit Vox? It's at least a better chance then Vox would have trying to settle land in the face of GoW and ND who would both be there very quickly.

This also pulls RP forces S to hit Vox. Then we'd have more of an opening to hit their core if/when we do land them.

It would take a lot of selling... what do you guys think?

	03-05-2003 15:56									#111
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Interesting idea, but is it workable? We'll need the time to build say 5 cities, defend them, and then take 2-3 turns selling everything back to Vox.

I think we can speed things up, though, by at least a turn. If Vox keeps a size 1 city here, their capital won't move to that city if they have a couple of size 1, or one size 2 on Bob. So, they disband their capital, move everything in their last city, and give it to us. We accept before RP has a chance to do anything (as they won't play their turn until after us), and Vox has a core on Bob. But still, they then have 1 capital with loads of units in it, and a coupld of undefended cities for at least a few turns... will be very tricky if RP has a few horsies close by.

It would make one of the nicest maneuvers I've seen in a long time, though, and could certainly classify as fun. Plus, the risk is for Vox, and not for us, except that we have to settler their cities...

DeepO

	03-05-2003 16:12									#112
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I don't have any screenshots of BOB anymore, can someone post/email one of RP's territory?

quote: I think we can speed things up, though, by at least a turn. If Vox keeps a size 1 city here, their capital won't move to that city if they have a couple of size 1, or one size 2 on Bob.

Good thinking. The size 2 city would be the best bet, as they could certainly hold it. Then as they get roads/units in place, we can keep founding new cities for them.

Also Vox could be building Settlers/Workers of their own up to that point, and when their stack gets ported over, they'd then have 4-5 Settlers to go found new cities with, and the units to protect them.

	03-05-2003 16:47									#113
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I see one major flaw in this idea: RP must be barb-hunting in their south (all that fogged-up south makes for one huge barb farm). It won't be long before they come across a dark-red border and do two plus two.

	03-05-2003 16:48									#114
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Btw, I had a thought:
If we ever reach an agreement with Vox, I would also demand to see their screenshot of the demographics screen each turn. It will allow us a close look at where Vox is standing, and also give us more data to be able to guesstimate where the other teams are standing (two demographics PoVs are better than one).

	03-05-2003 16:54									#115
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Certainly they will find out that we are building cities for Vox there. The cities show up even in the FOW, and at least some of the teams will see that the cities start out blue and then turn dark red.

This would be a nice big 'thank you for funding Vox' to RP... and it might make them think twice about sponsering anyone else to hit us... they just might be facing their own gold again. Keeping it a secret wasn't part of the plan.

	03-05-2003 17:35									#116
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To the best of my knowledge, we have no concrete evidence that RP has funded Vox beyond the normal scope of tech purchases. They make good suspects, but the evidence is all circumstantial.

Further, if we start operating on Bob, and especially if we and Vox do so jointly, it could very easily unite all of Bob against us. With Riders and Ansars coming up in the near future, that's pretty much the last thing I want to see happen. The only way we can safely invade Bob is if the Bobians are already fighting each other, or are getting ready to and ask for our assistance.

	15-05-2003 22:04									#117
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My "contact" in Vox just saw the latest turn. He said: "We need more information about the peace offer."

I think it's time for serious negotiations. My suggestion is that we tell them our initial demands - everything up to and including Eliopolis, and being allowed to attack any Voxian units still within our territory, and ask them where they want to go from there. Any ideas they might have of cooperation or whatever, just send us something official and we'll discuss and negotiate.

What are your opinions?

	15-05-2003 22:18									#118
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Shiber, add the possibility of iron trade, and I agree on that offer as an initial idea were to start from. But make it clear that we could perhaps reach another agreement, but this is what we consider a minimum, and we may need additional safety measures. We're willing to think on extra advantages for Vox (like the iron), though.

Oh, but better to wait until more people can comment on this, too important to simply state your personal views on... even if they are most likely the majority opinion

DeepO

	15-05-2003 22:22									#119
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Of course, I wasn't going to comment back without a wide discussion.
Btw, I was going to suggest that we send them an official message rather than just relay messages through me, but then I realized that it's best if Vox had to make the first official move.

	15-05-2003 22:31									#120
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I agree on that too, Shiber Better to let an initial offer come from them. Power diplomacy, sure, but in a polite way

DeepO