03-05-2003 02:36									#61
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Indeed, combining forces would be very powerfull and could potentionally very lucrative, however IMO Vox has crossed a line.

	03-05-2003 02:40									#62
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel How would they explain this to their current allies without exposing our new alliance? How could we trust them not to turn against us if they got a better deal?

They could correctly say that they surrendered and gave up D'ville and land because we outmaneuvered them and they wanted to save their army from further destruction.

Why did we accept? We got them out of the mountains and gained all that land for signing a peace accord. We can use the time of the peace to research Chivalry (in 6 if we max it, but we probably also want to rush the aquaduct at Tempest and maybe another building or two) and to create a fortress that would give us protection against possible Vox activity in the future.

No one need know of any other provisions of any accord.

	03-05-2003 02:40									#63
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Massive crossposts going on, it seems... or at least on my side

NYE, I can imagine you still see this as a possibility, however, is it really realistical? Sure, now that it becomes obvious they are going to lose, they want to switch coats, and be on the side of the victors. However, don't you think it will be just as easy to convince GoW from this? And who would do most damage on Bob, GoW, or Vox? It's not that their tactics have been super strong, so far.

OTOH, once it would become known that we and Vox ally together, instead of continuing this war to the bitter end, we immediately face isolation from all other teams, including Lego. That is not something we can handle, we tried this before at the start of this game.

Not to mention the possible back stabbing risk, which will only become bigger once they would be up to strength again. Sure, we may have a fortress and a couple of galleys, but that won't nearly be enough if they for instance gain access to knights too. And what about timing: are we really wanting to have to deal with intense , (intimite) communication for the rest of this game, which could play out for another half year to a year or so? No thanks, not my idea of a good time. I would rather not win, if that is the price.

DeepO

	03-05-2003 02:42									#64
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel This guy is pretty funny. They continually underrate us. Oh, and how are they getting feudalism, eh? buying from GoW? pretty funny.

Yeah, I was actually gonna laugh at that point of the conversation if it just wasn't so damn sad.
There was another really funny bit which I didn't post, but I think I should mention because it may be important (and because it is funny ). That person said that if we give him a negative answer on this one, then he's going to make the same offer to another team.
Yeah, right... suppose Lego is one of them, they'll just go: "ooh, well, we're actually doing very fine here, but let's give some of our cities to a bunch of proven backstabbing bastards which lack the industrious trait and can't run their cities properly. Oh, and I suppose we'll also gift them our core cities for a few turns so they could complete libraries at half price with their scientific trait in those cities and then give them back. And their slowmoving immortals will be fighting the wars of the future alongside our cavalry. And then plumbers will rain down from the heavens and Queen Victoria the 1st, Empress of India, will say "What on Earth is that?". Right."

Edit: wow, the speed of cross-posts here... the horror!

	03-05-2003 02:45									#65
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither We gain considerably if a deal can be worked out. The question is how much assurance do we need of Voxes fidelity, and do they have it in their power to satisfy that need.

They can start by gifting us DissidentVille. Step two would be Vox settling a city near the colony (so it would assimilate the colony) where we tell them to and then gifting the city to us, for example.

	03-05-2003 02:46									#66
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Don't forget, we were essentially telling Vox they were on their own (end the tech agreement) and showed little or no inclination to ally with them for military conquest.

I was not shocked in the least that they attacked us. Would they have been if we had attacked them, as we were beginning to plan to do? (but worse, we started to show it)

	03-05-2003 02:50									#67
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Okay, I'm glad we all agree.
Can I tell the Voxian guy that it's a definite no? Or do we want to make a counter-offer (I'll probably oppose and so will most of the people who posted here, I gather; of course, if it's the will of the team then I'll deliver the message) or stall for any reason?

	03-05-2003 02:53									#68
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Maybe we should wait a minute before responding. It would be nice if a few others (e.g SR, Arrian, nathan) commented on this before we turned them down.

Or is it very urgent?

	03-05-2003 02:53									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Okay, I'm glad we all agree. Can I tell the Voxian guy that it's a definite no? Or do we want to make a counter-offer (I'll probably oppose and so will most of the people who posted here, I gather; of course, if it's the will of the team then I'll deliver the message) or stall for any reason?

Well, at least stall until we see the turn. They might have lost their whole army or something, bad time to agree to anything.

	03-05-2003 02:54									#70
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Are Vox still sitting on the turn?

	03-05-2003 02:55									#71
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Are Vox still sitting on the turn?

yes

	03-05-2003 02:57									#72
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In that case I expect they want an answer from us before they play. That way they can either attack us or waste their time trying to set themselves up as vassals to somebody else if we turn them down.

	03-05-2003 02:58									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO My apologies to your friend, this is not personal, but indeed they made a mistake, and have to pay the price for it. Or at least, that's my opinion on the matter. I do appreciate it you want to serve as an informal communication channel, though.

I'd like to relate to this part and clear up a few things.
First, he's not my friend. I've never had much respect for this guy, and now I know for sure that I was right all along.
Second, he approached me. I found his message, his views, his assumptions & estimates and his attitude ridiculous at best, arrogant or blatantly stupid at worse. I only forwarded it because I felt that it was my responsibility, as a member of the team, to deliver any messages that I receive, even if they're ridiculous and probably just a waste of time.
Though you gotta admit, you must have had some good laughs while reading through those messages.

	03-05-2003 02:59									#74
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet In that case I expect they want an answer from us before they play. That way they can either attack us or waste their time trying to set themselves up as vassals to somebody else if we turn them down.

If they're waiting on an answer from us, then I say we should just ride out the clock and force them to move. we can't be held hostage due to the save's being held hostage, or somtheing to that effect.

	03-05-2003 03:05									#75
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Actually, according to my chat with Beta, we are waiting to hear from him. I suspect they are holding the turn while discussing whether to sue for peace or not.

I think it is premature to reply to the unknown one, when we don't even know if the concept has any currency with Vox as a whole.

btw, what are we going to do if Vox sues for peace publically? How big a bullies do we want to become in the eyes of the other teams?

	03-05-2003 03:07									#76
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At least wait for more input, this is not something we can decide with less then half the members present.

NYE, I agree that we were beginning to show interest in their territory, and I don't feel bad about that. At that point, it was becoming clear that we were not made to be military brothers, and this has not changed because they are becoming submissive at once.

As to the comment of them offering it to someone else: I can see who, and it's not Lego. GoW is such an obvious choice, it's scary. A combined Vox-GoW force would certainly be able to harm us, and they will most likely get Feudalism from them anyway, maybe even for free. (or RP pays GoW to give it to Vox, the possibilities are endless). But would GoW go for it? I doubt it, not without backing of the rest of Bob. And who would back them, if they are at the brink of conquering another continent for themselves?

No, this deal can't work with Gow, nor with anyone else, we're the only choice for Vox. But I can see them thinking it will succeed.

Besides, how trustworthy are Vox, if they are already thinking on offering their services to someone else? It's not that they have a record of being trustworthy...

DeepO

	03-05-2003 03:11									#77
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I'm 99% sure that Vox will sit on the save until they receive our answer or until their time runs out.
Normally I'd want to wait for all of our active members to respond (SR, Arrian, Theseus, Nathan, Aeson, Vel, Vulture... did I forget anyone?), but with such overwhelming opposition, I'm inclined towards sending a response earlier.
Then again, they might not contact any other teams before they get a definite answer from us. This means that if we can stall them until their time runs out, they won't be able to begin negotiations before they've played this turn.
But come to think about it - do we really want to try to harm their efforts to achieve a similar deal with another team? I mean, considering their opportunistic nature, their bad micro-management and the diplomatic damage that they'll cause to their new "masters", not to mention all the headaches and trouble that they bring along with them, perhaps we should actually want them to become vassals of Lego, for instance?

Proposed message to my "Vox contact":

quote: Your offer has been rejected unanimously. Please don't ask Legoland to delay their turn to give us more time to "think this over", we've already made up our minds. Thank you.

Ahh, Vox Controli... NEIGHBOURS FROM HELL!!!

	03-05-2003 03:12									#78
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Okay, sorry Shiber, if I misunderstood you. And yes, I did smile more then once when reading the messages... but I agree with NYE that we need to give it some serious thought before dismissing it.

if they plead for peace publicly, we can simply say: "Sorry, we cannot risk that. You have crossed us before, now bear the consequences. In our eyes, it still is tense, and we do not intend to keep this tension going for the rest of this game. You declared war, now fight like a man."

DeepO

	03-05-2003 03:16									#79
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If they plead for peace in the public, we demand up to and including Elipolis. They have to pay us something in tribute, I'm sure that others will agree. And that might just backfire on them, no one likes a whiner who is trying to worm their way out of a defeat.

	03-05-2003 03:18									#80
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I darted home for 'lunch'. The log is posted.

Hmmm, left over KFC...

	03-05-2003 03:21									#81
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So, if they sue publically, and we demand up to and including Eliopolis... and they say 'yes', then what?

We turn down the chance for them to switch targets and they get peace.

Calling this a blood feud to the death because they attacked us, when we let slip to some others that we would likely attack Vox is going to win us lots of friends, I'll bet.

	03-05-2003 03:24									#82
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If they public, our answer should be short: N O !!!
(j/k)
My answer would be something like: We have no interest in holding these talks on the public forum.

Simple as that.

	03-05-2003 03:25									#83
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I would go for peace with Vox. A FP in Arashi and cities up to the bottleneck will give us the most effective empire by far at this point, probably up till the Industrial era. We'd just have to make sure we leverage that into a conquest on BOB by that time. (beeline for Military Tradition?)

For it to be acceptable to me:

Vox would need to give us up to the bottleneck.

Allow us to keep bombarding their units in our territory until they have withdrawn (it won't kill them, and gives us a measure of safety if they renege).

No talks about military alliances against BOB.

--------

Then we can maybe still build the Collosus in Hurricane, get the FP up ASAP in Arashi, an Aquaduct in Tempest... stuff that is going to help us in relation to all the other civs, instead of just building up military.

	03-05-2003 03:28									#84
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Well, I certainly wouldn't see it as a "blood feud".

I don't want us to wipe out Vox because they betrayed us. I want us to wipe out Vox because I want us to have their land. It's that simple. IMHO that was the reason why we were going to attack them before, and it's still the reason we're planning to attack them now.

	03-05-2003 03:35									#85
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Well, if they give us all up to, and including Elipolis, I would agree too. But without immediate talks about invading Bob... that wouldn't do us any good either, publicly.

It would accomplish our goals, for the moment, and would be an essential win. However, we need more guarantees, we can't simply give them time to rebuild, while we switch to full expansion mode again.

The Collosus is lost, IMHO, but we might have a decent shot at Leo's, which is just as nice.

BTW, that was a good chat, nye. It gained a bit more info on how Vox sees things, especially to the relations on Bob. But I still think that if we declare peace, it would give Bob more reason to unite against us, and that would not be a good thing with UUs coming up.

DeepO

	03-05-2003 03:36									#86
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If we take all of Vox, will not Bob unite against us?

	03-05-2003 03:36									#87
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And "blood feud": Hmmm... maybe. But we can't lose face either... if we appear to weak, or without spine, people will think about that too.

DeepO

	03-05-2003 03:38									#88
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nye: yes, probably. But we can't take Vox before at least some war breaks out on Bob, after which the damage may have been done. If ND and RP engage in war, they will not be likely to help each other out, even if it is against us.

Togas is a fine diplomat, but I don't think he is well liked in many teams.

DeepO

	03-05-2003 03:41									#89
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I agree that peace cannot be tied to an alliance.

However, an alliance would be a very good by-product later. We will want to go to Bob eventually. Going 2 vs 3, or gettiing one of Bob to switch to make it 3 vs 2 would make a big difference.

	03-05-2003 03:54									#90
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I just read through your chat log NYE, and I get the impression they want an alliance to 'pay off' (getting land on BOB) before giving up the land to us.