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Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 02-05-2003 22:34
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...1-2003May1.html

quote:

In Laboratory, Ordinary Cells Are Turned Into Eggs

By Rick Weiss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 2, 2003; Page A01


Scientists in Pennsylvania yesterday said they had turned ordinary mouse embryo cells into egg cells in laboratory dishes -- an advance that opens the door to creating "designer" eggs from scratch and, if repeated with human cells, could blur the biological line between fathers and mothers.

The work undermines the standard model of parenthood because the scientists made egg cells not only from female cells, but also from male cells, indicating that even males have the biological capacity to make eggs.

If the science holds true in humans as in mice -- and several scientists said they suspect it will -- then a gay male couple might, before long, be able to produce children through sexual reproduction, with one man contributing sperm and the other fresh eggs bearing his own genes.

That scenario raises difficult questions, including whether the second man would be recognized as the child's biological mother.

"It's absolutely remarkable," said Lee Silver, a Princeton molecular biologist who specializes in reproductive ethics. "This breaks down all the classic barriers in terms of sexual reproduction, with none of the problems of cloning."

Cloning produces offspring from just one parent, raising genetic and ethical problems that are not raised by the laboratory cultivation of eggs and sperm -- although the new work, in which embryonic stem cells spontaneously transformed themselves into eggs, raises issues of its own.

"Some of the applications will be seen as straightforward boons to humankind, such as for women who can't make healthy eggs the usual way," said Thomas Murray, president of the Hastings Center, a bioethics think tank in Garrison, N.Y. "But as with just about any medical development, there will be other uses that will give people hiccups, if not fits."

Human applications aside, the ability to mass-produce egg cells in a lab could make it much easier to engineer traits into animals, and help conservationists rebuild populations of endangered species.

The work also offers researchers an unprecedented opportunity to watch how mammalian egg cells mature -- something that usually happens in the privacy of an ovary -- and to learn about "meiosis," the mysterious process by which an egg or sperm spits out half of its genes so it can mate with its counterpart of the opposite sex.

"The mind boggles with potential wild applications of this stuff," said John Eppig, a mouse geneticist at the Jackson Laboratory in Bar Harbor, Maine.

If the mouse work does translate into an ability to create batches of human eggs, the most immediate effect might be on Capitol Hill. The Senate is debating whether to restrict the creation of cloned human embryos as a source of medically promising stem cells.

Until now, one argument for banning the creation of cloned embryos has been that it would require a huge supply of human eggs to make all the embryos and therapeutic cells that patients might need. That market demand could lead to an "egg-donor underclass" of poor women who might submit to repeated, health-compromising egg donation procedures as a way of making money.

But if scientists can grow lots of human eggs in the laboratory, experts said, that market would not appear. "Commodification and safety issues would be avoided," said Judy Norsigian, executive director of the Boston Women's Health Book Collective, who has been a leader in the movement against what is known as therapeutic cloning because of the risks it might pose to poor women.

Norsigian and others said they remain wary of the new technology because of its potential to facilitate the genetic engineering of people. Scientists have already learned how to add and subtract specific genes in stem cells. Those genetic changes would appear in eggs grown from such cells, offering an easy means of making heritable changes in a family line and possibly giving rise to a new age of eugenics.

The prospect of wholesale production of human eggs from embryo cells also raises alarms for religious conservatives and others who are opposed to all research involving embryos.

"It sounds like this could be another big step towards opening what President Bush has called 'human embryo farms,' " said Douglas Johnson, legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee.

The new work builds on more than 20 years of research on mouse embryonic stem cells -- primordial cells found inside mouse embryos that, in laboratory dishes, can develop into almost every kind of mouse cell or tissue. (Human embryonic stem cells, which have the same potential, were discovered much more recently, in 1998.) Until now, the only cells that scientists could not grow from embryonic stem cells were sperm and eggs.

Hans Schoeler and Karin Huebner of the University of Pennsylvania's School of Veterinary Medicine in Kennett Square, along with colleagues in France and Philadelphia, overcame that barrier by gradually selecting from a mixed population of stem cells the ones that bore certain genetic hallmarks that suggested a potential to become eggs, then isolating those in laboratory dishes.

After a while, perhaps because the number of like-minded cells reached a "critical mass," the stem cells in those dishes started to morph into two kinds of cells. Some became follicular cells -- the kind of cells found in ovaries that help young egg cells mature -- and others became young egg cells.

The eggs appeared to mature normally, the researchers reported yesterday in the online edition of the journal Science. In fact, many spontaneously developed into early embryos in their dishes, something that cultured mouse eggs often do. That offers evidence that the eggs are relatively healthy. But Schoeler said his team is now trying to fertilize the eggs with mouse sperm to see if they give rise to healthy mature embryos -- the gold standard of egg normalcy.

Perhaps most astonishing, said Eppig of the Jackson Laboratory, the lab-reared egg and follicle cells apparently engaged in the complicated cross-talk required for normal development. Follicle cells surrounded each egg in a gentle embrace as they would in an ovary, for example, and even produced female hormones, which the eggs need to mature.

"I am flabbergasted that these darn things are making estrogen," Eppig said. "Imagine what's going to happen when you can do the same thing and make sperm."

The genetic program for making sperm is believed to be more complicated than for making eggs, but sperm farming may not be farfetched, Schoeler said. Success could raise interesting questions about the biological relevance of males.

If sperm can be made from stem cells, for example, then lesbians could make babies by sexual reproduction. Unlike gay men, they would not have to turn to the other sex to gestate those babies.

"It will take a nanosecond for people in same-sex relationships to figure out the potential implications of this research for them," said Murray, of the Hastings Center. "People can just fill in the blanks."


© 2003 The Washington Post Company


How neat!

So which of you 'Poly lads wants to be the first to have one of my babies?

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-05-2003 22:40
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I see a problem:

It was not adult cells that were turned into eggs, but embryo cells. Otherwise, we'd be able to go a far way in stem cell application.

GePap is offline GePap
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Nov 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-05-2003 22:44
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Just more evidence that in the next 50 years there will be lots of upheavals in terms of ethics and biology.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 02-05-2003 23:11
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Indeed. I think I'll ressurect that old Genetic Engineering thread.

monkspider is offline monkspider
King
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-05-2003 23:19
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Wow, this is really cool.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 02-05-2003 23:19
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Boris, If you could genetically engineer your child and give him heterosexual or homosexual traits, which would you do? (If to personal just don't answer and accept my apologies)

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO1003
Boris, If you could genetically engineer your child and give him heterosexual or homosexual traits, which would you do? (If to personal just don't answer and accept my apologies)


Neither... que sera sera, whatever will be will be...

I sincerely doubt sexuality is something that is engineerable, however. I think the factors are more biological than genetic.

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 00:31
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"My Two Dads" was a stupid show.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 00:37
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quote:
more biological than genetic.


Aren't these the same? Did you mean environmental vs. genetic?

uh Clem is offline uh Clem
King
Born in the US; damned if I know where I live now
Nov 1999
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 02:55 Visit uh Clem's homepage!
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"Gays can't have children" as a political argument goes down the crapper.

Good.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO1003


Aren't these the same? Did you mean environmental vs. genetic?


Nope, there is a difference between biological factors and genetics. Biological factors could be chemical processes that go on in the womb that effect the child.

I think gays are gay for a variety of reasons, and it's not the same for all of them. Some are so for more environmental reasons, some for more biological reasons, and some perhaps due to genetic ones.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:10
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If this is true, then drugs could alter one's sexual preference?

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:16
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO1003
If this is true, then drugs could alter one's sexual preference?


Not necessarily if the hormones in question caused permanent alteration to the brain. And if it's a combination of many factors, introducing drugs isn't likely to be successful.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:25
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Okay, I'll buy that. For this to be accurate then all of the alterations would have to have occured at the fetus stage, right?

I think it is a combination of many factors. Partially genetic, partially biological, partly environment as you said. I believe that it is also partly choice.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:27 Visit Asher's homepage!
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I don't think it matters and I also don't think the choice argument is in any way accurate.

In fact it's frustratingly silly.

It's only a "choice" if you're fully bisexual and wish to repress half of your instincts.

Boris Godunov is offline Boris Godunov
King
Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:29
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I don't see any sense in the "choice" argument. Why would anyone choose to be something that is reviled by so many? How could one "choose" to alter one's sexuality? If one could, why has it never been shown that gays can alter their own sexuality to be heterosexual? (Ignoring the specious claims of groups like Exodus, which don't publish data and have high-profile failures).

I spent years trying to "choose" to be heterosexual, sans success. I finally did make one choice--to accept who I am and be happy with it. That's the only place where choice entered into it.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:31
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Asher, I respectfully disagree. I think that someone open minded enough could be swayed by a gay lifestyle. In many ways some of the gays I've got for friends have a lot more fun than I do.

I'm not trying to insinuate that someone who is gay can simply choose to be straight or vice versa. I am merely saying that I believe that choice does have a place in the mix.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:32
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Boris, You are putting more weight on the word than I do. I agree in principal with what you are saying.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:54 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Hey Plato, I hate to break this to you.. but homosexuality is not a choice. If it was, I would be straight. But I am not and there isn't anything I can do about it.

quote:
I think that someone open minded enough could be swayed by a gay lifestyle.


What the hell is the gay lifestyle?

Do everybody a favor and stray from using labels. At apolyton, many here do not fit these labels. And I don't see how anybody could turn gay by choice or option.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
Hey Plato, I hate to break this to you.. but homosexuality is not a choice. If it was, I would be straight. But I am not and there isn't anything I can do about it.



What the hell is the gay lifestyle?

Do everybody a favor and stray from using labels. At apolyton, many here do not fit these labels. And I don't see how anybody could turn gay by choice or option.


Fez, I agree in principal with what you are saying. No offense intended. Please accept my apologies. I do believe you are reading more into what I said than is there. However, I do stand by my statement.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
Los Angeles
Apr 2000
time: 02:27
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Explain yourself a bit more because at this state your statement is highly ambigious. You state something and then later disagree with it. Please clarify.

Immortal Wombat is offline Immortal Wombat
Prince
in perpetuity
Dec 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
What the hell is the gay lifestyle?

One where you **** men.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
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  Old Post 03-05-2003 04:08 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Immortal Wombat

One where you **** men.


PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
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time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 04:16
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Fez, I don't see where I have contradicted myself. Here is my clarification:

Due to factors earlier discussed (biology & genetics) it is clear that ones inclination to sexual preference is determined by things other than choice.

However, many acknowledge that environment may be an influencing factor in manifesting that inclination. Boris even listed environment as a factor. While in many ways one does not control their environment, in some ways we do. We certainly control how we react to our environment. While I will fully agree that this is probably the least influential factor in determining sexuality, I nevertheless believe that it is a factor for some. In choosing to react the way that we do, we contribute to or work against our inclinations. This is choice.

Example: Let's take a high school football player. He is discovering his sexuality and has felt desires towards both men and women. 1.) The environment that he is in is so anti gay that he only acts on the desires for women. He finds one that he falls in love with and leads a happy heterosexual life. 2.) He chooses to change his association with his anti gay teammates and instead befriends a male friend who is sympathetic to his plight and understands his desire for men. It turns out that they have a mutual attraction for each other and develop a happy long term relationship.

This is choice.

Now, am I saying that everyone faces these choices...No. Am I saying that all gay men or women have faced this choice...No. I am simply saying that their are cases when choice does enter into the mix.

I don't know if I have adequately reflected my thoughts here, but I want to assure you that I don't have any lack of respect for your position.

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 03-05-2003 04:30 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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That example is called bisexuality. There are people who only have feeling towards guys.

Choices? The only choice I had was to accept myself.

PLATO is offline PLATO

King
Of the occupied South
Dec 2002
time: 23:27
  Old Post 03-05-2003 04:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Fez
That example is called bisexuality. There are people who only have feeling towards guys.

Choices? The only choice I had was to accept myself.


And quite a good one

Giancarlo is offline Giancarlo
King
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 03-05-2003 04:38 Visit Giancarlo's homepage!
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Quite a good one what? You are too vague in your responses.. I mean no disrespect.

faded glory is offline faded glory
King
This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
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  Old Post 03-05-2003 07:42
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Got spare money?

Boris. I would be most honored sweety!

Adam Smith is offline Adam Smith
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 03-05-2003 08:03
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Of course Heather can already have two daddies if the daddies choose to adopt.

Asher is offline Asher
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Nov 1999
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  Old Post 03-05-2003 08:35 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by PLATO1003
Asher, I respectfully disagree.

Okay then, I want you to choose to be gay for a month and let me know how it goes for you.

 
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